Progressive Martial Art Thinkers/Just The Facts... merged

[Permalost]

Wow, great article. It was interesting to see xingyi so often in the top competitors. I was also kinda surprised to not see any from choy li fut or hung gar.

[Permalost]

Also, being on a freshly built concrete platform, it is not at all surprising that shuai jiao players did well.

[nomamao]

Wow, great article. It was interesting to see xingyi so often in the top competitors. I was also kinda surprised to not see any from choy li fut or hung gar.

I don't think any from those groups even came through.

[Jack Rusher]

Nice!

It was interesting to see xingyi so often in the top competitors.

Xingyi was traditionally considered one of the more practical forms of Chinese boxing. As further evidence: the guy who came in second on this leitai, Zhu Guolu (xingyi and boxing), also won the 1928 Nanjing tournament.

Favorite quote:

“If I were to be knocked down, I should respect my opponent’s gongfu: we should recognise that ‘he who can knock me down has gongfu’”.

The fighter they point out as having been the youngest of the finalists, Zhao Daoxin, studied under Zhang Zhao-Dong (xingyi + bagua/shuaijiao), Wu Yi Hui (founder liuhebafa), and Wang Xiangzhai (founder of yiquan). He gave some great interviews about martial arts as a grumpy old san da instructor in his 80s:

The division for Shaolin, Wudang, Emei and Zhongnan arts is only expressing fact that communication was difficult in old times. But it is past. And the internal-external division was made up by literati fascinated by the style which they practiced, so they started calling it internal family art – skillful writers created flowery descriptions. In fact, in real fighting there are no styles.

[ ... ]

There is a lot of shortcomings and taboos. [ ... ] If you tell some person doing baguazhang, that his movements resemble taijiquan, he will hardly accept such opinion. If you tell some xingyiquan practitioner that you notice some similarities to western boxing he will feel bad about it. But actually the differences between styles are more in ritual gestures than in the way of fighting. But those gestures are useful only for demonstration or meeting, in fight they are useless and stupid.

[ ... ]

Combat efficiency is decided by way of training. And methods of traditional training have low efficiency. You need a lot of time, and even after long time you are not sure if you will be able to use your skills in fighting.

... an echo of one of my laments regarding theory-based taiji versus how the guys with real gongfu train:

if you see what those taijiquan masters who can demonstrate issuing power are practicing in secret, you will understand what I'm talking about.

... and speaking for all of Bullshido:

No matter which style, the problem is lack of actual fighting training. In which traditional school most time is spend on fighting training? Traditional teachers make two funny mistakes. First – they say that fighting training can only be the last part of training process, that only when you have gongli, you can start testing it in fight. Second – they think that when you become proficient in tui shou and other exercises with partner which resemble fighting, it means that you developed fighting skill. Of course it is difficult to introduce hard fighting during training. Martial arts hobbysts don't want to go to work next day with swollen face, and bruised legs. But if you want to achieve high level in martial art, you must make it. From the beginning you should train like you will fight.

More here.

[DerAuslander]

Jack, you always bring us the best violence.

[It is Fake]

You guys know where this is going soon.

[NJM]

Where?

[It is Fake]

Progressive Martial Art Thinkers - No BS MMA and Martial Arts

[Jack Rusher]

If you read the Tai Chi Classics, study the philosophical foundation, practice the moving meditation, you will gain a sense of awareness, feel supple, and possibly be able to generate a lot of speed and power. But it is hard to translate these principles into viable martial application until you test yourself out in the ring and incrementally separate the real from the mythical. Unfortunately, many teachers haven't done this themselves, and they protect their egos and their schools by claiming to have tremendous power -- for example, the ability to throw someone without touching them -- but they refuse to show anyone. Often, supposedly great martial artists will avoid demonstrating their "power" by offering the explanation: "If you and I were to spar, I might kill you." Whenever I hear this I know that I am listening to a charlatan.

-- The Art of Learning, Josh Waitzkin

Waitzkin trained for years with William CC Chen, ultimately winning two gold medals at the 2004 Zhong Hua Bei (akak Chung Hwa Cup) push hands tournament in Taiwan (arguably the highest level of play in that sport). He's currently a BJJ brown belt.

[Jack Rusher]

Continuing the series of posts related to the Shanghai leitai, W C Chen was a student of Zhang Zhao-Dong, who trained Zhao Daoxin (the finalist who gave the great interview a few posts back). Zhang Zhao-Dong was also of the same generation and Beijing training group as Cui Zhendong, who is mentioned in the Western Tigers in Old Shanghai thread.

Anyway, I just ran into these W C Chen quotes in a book by one of his students (Making of a Butterfly by Phillip Starr):

Although shuai-jiao is a martial art itself, virtually all styles of kung-fu employ various throwing and takedown techniques. Chen was a strong advocate of the grappling art and insisted that his students become as skilled with the grappling techniques as they with [ striking ] techniques.

Chen nodded and addressed the entire group. "In a real fight, people like to punch and grab. They try to wrestle with you. If you cannot fight this way, you will lose."

He motioned for one of the students (a fellow whose surname was Lum) to step forward. "If Lum grabs me and wrestles, what can I do?"

So saying, he directed Lum to grab him in any way he liked and throw him to the ground. [...] In a flash, Lum's feet were above his head and Chen brought him down easily.
"See? He tries to wrestle with me, I take control and throw him down. This is very important."

"The teacher of my teacher was Cheng Tinghua. He was very, very good at shuai-jiao. His style of Baguazhang was full of these kinds of techniques."

"There are 'rules' for throwing that you must remember. First, always hit your enemy before you throw him. Second, never use your strength against his strength. Use his strength against him. If he pulls, you push. If he pushes, you pull. Never try to throw someone who is not off balance. If his stance is strong, you cannot throw him even if he is smaller than you. [ ... ] If your opponent is very tall, you can use body throws. If he is short, use leg sweeps."

... thoroughly practical and conventional advice for modern fighters.