Human Weapon-Muay Thai episode

**Scott Larson** · Posted On: 8/04/2007 10:05pm

I know I'll get attacked for this, but why exactly all the hate for Muay Chiya and brick breaking? If you aren't wearing boxing gloves and fighting in the ring you are crap? Sorry if I misunderstand.

**Necroth** · Posted On: 8/05/2007 11:08am

Brick breaking, I can understand totally. It's really not an effective measuring stick for any practicality of an artform. I could come up with some of the most fucked up "theories" of striking and still produce world class brick breaking students...who couldn't punch their way out of a wet, paper bag with help from a golden gloves boxer.

But the digs at Chaiya are probably a symptom of what I like to call "American superiority complex". Has alot in common with the "TMA is better than MMA" and "My jujutsu > than your jiu jitsu" syndrome. Very close in symptoms and root causes.

Frankly, Chaiya is one of the founding forms of Muay Thai. The elbow strikes and blocking from Muay Thai are direct descendants of the elbow strikes and forearm blocking developed in Chaiya, and you can see the proactive positions they take in regards to the aforementioned. Lopburi, although it made a horrible showing in the Human Weapon show (the double fist was a bad technique to choose) is the root and basis of punching and footwork for much of Muay Thai, with Khorat and Ling Lom following as founding posts and adding strength and speed, respectively. Other forms, Tha Sao for instance, added their own benefits, though less so since most of these were secretive forms of Muay Boran, which did not condone teaching or revealing techniques to foreigners.

Regardless of the protrayal of Chaiya on this show, though, it's usefulness should be no point of contention. The Thai boxing commission that oversees Muay Thai competition has outlawed a multitude of Muay Boran techniques, many of which come from Chaiya, as being too deadly and too dangerous for the ring. Now, while this sounds alot like the TMA claims of "teh d34dly" technique, the context is more akin to the usage of elbow strikes to the spine, teep and dtae to the kneecaps, etc, as opposed to the claims that krotty and _ing _un will harass you to death with attempts at eye gouges and nutkicks. The art of Chaiya is streamlined for situations of personal safety and the quickest, most efficient end to a fight, not with scoring a knockout over the course of 5 rounds, and they train to attack with speed, at the most vital parts of the body. So don't let the "ninja training camp" comments the hosts made on the show confuse you to the facts that Chaiya is effective enough not to be overlooked by the very commission that sets the rules for Muay Thai. To put it into context, Nevada Boxing Commission has many rules about what is unacceptable, but none mention the art from which they come. Thai rules, on the other hand, are quite clear about where the forbidden strikes are trained and why not to use them.

**aaaargh** · Posted On: 8/05/2007 11:41am

Originally Posted by Necroth

...Regardless of the protrayal of Chaiya on this show, though, it's usefulness should be no point of contention. The Thai boxing commission that oversees Muay Thai competition has outlawed a multitude of Muay Boran techniques, many of which come from Chaiya, as being too deadly and too dangerous for the ring. Now, while this sounds alot like the TMA claims of "teh d34dly" technique, the context is more akin to the usage of elbow strikes to the spine, teep and dtae to the kneecaps, etc, as opposed to the claims that krotty and _ing _un will harass you to death with attempts at eye gouges and nutkicks...

Can you please explain why it's OK to use the "too deadly for the ring" argument in your context, but not for ninjas? They would all say they train elbows to the spine, punches to the back of the head, etc.

**ysc87** · Posted On: 8/05/2007 12:38pm

Can you please explain why it's OK to use the "too deadly for the ring" argument in your context, but not for ninjas? They would all say they train elbows to the spine, punches to the back of the head, etc.

Because ninjas don't really have sport fighting competitions.

However, they DO have competitions where they see who can continuously sing the theme song to Naruto while playing Ninja Gaiden on hard mode. I heard a guy got suspended last year for using a banned substance to make his voice more nasally and high pitched to impress the judges... helium, i believe.

**Torakaka** · Posted On: 8/05/2007 1:26pm

Originally Posted by Hui_Xiu

I know I'll get attacked for this, but why exactly all the hate for Muay Chiya and brick breaking? If you aren't wearing boxing gloves and fighting in the ring you are crap? Sorry if I misunderstand.

The same reason why I'd make digs on 99% of karate and kung fu. It may feel pretty cool to train like Tony Jaa's character from Ong Bak, but it's still compliant, for show nonsense.

**aaaargh** · Posted On: 8/05/2007 1:39pm

Originally Posted by ysc87

Because ninjas don't really have sport fighting competitions.

I didn't get the impression that these back-woods-deadly guys ever got into the ring. And they certainly didn't look nearly as muscular or athletic as the "regular" muay thai.

**Scott Larson** · Posted On: 8/05/2007 1:55pm

Originally Posted by Necroth

Brick breaking, I can understand totally. It's really not an effective measuring stick for any practicality of an artform. I could come up with some of the most fucked up "theories" of striking and still produce world class brick breaking students...who couldn't punch their way out of a wet, paper bag with help from a golden gloves boxer.

But the digs at Chaiya are probably a symptom of what I like to call "American superiority complex". Has alot in common with the "TMA is better than MMA" and "My jujutsu > than your jiu jitsu" syndrome. Very close in symptoms and root causes.

Frankly, Chaiya is one of the founding forms of Muay Thai. The elbow strikes and blocking from Muay Thai are direct descendants of the elbow strikes and forearm blocking developed in Chaiya, and you can see the proactive positions they take in regards to the aforementioned. Lopburi, although it made a horrible showing in the Human Weapon show (the double fist was a bad technique to choose) is the root and basis of punching and footwork for much of Muay Thai, with Khorat and Ling Lom following as founding posts and adding strength and speed, respectively. Other forms, Tha Sao for instance, added their own benefits, though less so since most of these were secretive forms of Muay Boran, which did not condone teaching or revealing techniques to foreigners.

Regardless of the protrayal of Chaiya on this show, though, it's usefulness should be no point of contention. The Thai boxing commission that oversees Muay Thai competition has outlawed a multitude of Muay Boran techniques, many of which come from Chaiya, as being too deadly and too dangerous for the ring. Now, while this sounds alot like the TMA claims of "teh d34dly" technique, the context is more akin to the usage of elbow strikes to the spine, teep and dtae to the kneecaps, etc, as opposed to the claims that krotty and _ing _un will harass you to death with attempts at eye gouges and nutkicks. The art of Chaiya is streamlined for situations of personal safety and the quickest, most efficient end to a fight, not with scoring a knockout over the course of 5 rounds, and they train to attack with speed, at the most vital parts of the body. So don't let the "ninja training camp" comments the hosts made on the show confuse you to the facts that Chaiya is effective enough not to be overlooked by the very commission that sets the rules for Muay Thai. To put it into context, Nevada Boxing Commission has many rules about what is unacceptable, but none mention the art from which they come. Thai rules, on the other hand, are quite clear about where the forbidden strikes are trained and why not to use them.

Thank you. I will give you a written Varrot. (+1)

**Necroth** · Posted On: 8/05/2007 2:29pm

Uhh, the blocking demonstration was non-compliant, but it was technique specific, ie. striking above the waist only. If you don't know what I'm talking about, it's the part directly after Kru preang explains that Muay Chaiya does not block and retreat, rather choosing to push blocks forward and counter after each block. The two showing the principle are going full speed, with no gloves, delivering strikes. Yes, some of the strikes are forearms and not punches; as I stated, we all have our odd training regimens and while I don't agree on the usefulness of some of the strikes, claiming Chaiya is 99.5% BS from a full speed demonstration that would put most Thai training to shame is reaching.

Many of those training at Kru preang's second school are also Thai fighters. Kru Preang (Amornkit Pramual) has been involved in Muay Thai and other arts since childhood. Ketr Sriyapai served as Lumpinee stadium manager for many years before his death in 1978. Chaiya is respected enough in Thailand to be demonstrated for and have sattelite schools in the royal palace, many military units, and at many Muay Thai gyms. But because a wrestler and a no-name MMA fighter on a cable television show showed some video of Kru Preang, suddenly it's not good enough for jaded Americans who train Muay Thai in what most admit is a very cushy and relaxed, comparatively, environment?

Allow me to be the American who dissents. I wouldn't last a day in many of these guys' training regimens, whether it's Chaiya, Thai, or even San Da. They train from sunrise until lunch, then through the afternoon and into the night. They train repetitions that most of us wouldn't dream of, regardless of whather it's sportfighting or Muay Boran styles. And Muay Boran trains to be deadly, fast, accurate, and useful, not merely to destroy the thigh and clinch for some effective, but slow to develop, knees, but rather to destroy the kneecap, ribcage, spine, neck, anything that would be seen as dangerous for sportfighters to do but very effective for self defense. This is not to say I don't think Muay Thai still retains usefulness, as it's merely a question of dropping a teep or dtae two inches down to hit the kneecap from the normal thigh kick. But Chaiya and other Muay Boran starts out training this attack, not the less effective ring fighting techniques.

And thanks for the written varrot.

**ysc87** · Posted On: 8/05/2007 2:46pm

Originally Posted by aaaargh

I didn't get the impression that these back-woods-deadly guys ever got into the ring. And they certainly didn't look nearly as muscular or athletic as the "regular" muay thai.

I've heard otherwise.

*edit* Oh, post above.
written varrot for you too, necroth. +1.

**Torakaka** · Posted On: 8/05/2007 7:40pm

I've had far too many arguments with "ancient muay thai" nutriders to feel like going through all of this again. Every video I've seen has, at best, been one step sparring type drills or two person forms. I've never seen a clip of anything that looked remotely like real sparring or anything with any real resistance. The blocking drill from the episode was mostly compliant one step sparring type crap. Until I see anything that resembles realistic fight training from these people, my opinion will remain that they are on par with all the run-of-the-mill karate and kung fu schools out there.