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  1. Shu2jack is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/31/2007 4:08pm


     Style: AMAI TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34

    When I say number of classes, I mean that there is a minimum that they must attend. Hold a promotion every six months, if someone doesnt appear reaady, then they dont test.
    I also understand that some people are better than others, I am trying to keep someone from opening a school, and saying " Here ya go, all you have to do is meet the physical requirements and I will sell you a BB."

    Thats why I would like to see a "time in grade" policy. It isnt set in stone that someone will get to test every six months.
    Why wouldn't you pass someone who meets the physical requirements?

    If the student knows the techniques, can perform them at an acceptable level, works hard, and isn't a douche bag, then why not promote them?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34

    My point of BJ Penn was, even though he was a phenom at BJJ, it still took him four years to get BB. Why should anyone be able to reach BB in two years in the new style? That will only lead to what TKD has to much of now, bogus belts.
    And my point was that BJ Penn is very talented and worked his ass off. Nobody held him to time requirements. Instead, he probably had to meet other requirements that took him 4 years to meet.

    If you don't want 2 year BBs, that is fine. I've seen many martial artists who have half-assed things for many years and fufilled their time requirements. I would much rather see more rigorous training methods and competition-based requirements for promotion than time requirements.



    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    It seemed that you were saying you took 2 years along side of your friend. If he went through the ranks with you, then logic would dictate that it also took you 2 years.
    Sorry. I went through the black belt ranks together before we went our seperate ways. I started before him and we both tested for 1st degree together as well as doing our mid-terms and 2nd degree testings around the same time.
  2. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/31/2007 5:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    takedowns, clinch fighting, and some ground game basics
    Foot sweeps yes, no clinch, no ground game. That would be crappling and isnt TKD. I agree with Matt W.

    TKD is a stand up striking art. It already has knees, elbows, head punches and the like. There isnt any need to make it something it isnt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shu2jack
    Why wouldn't you pass someone who meets the physical requirements?

    If the student knows the techniques, can perform them at an acceptable level, works hard, and isn't a douche bag, then why not promote them?
    Because there still needs to be some modicum of time in a grade. If you let one guy get a BB in 2 years that opens up the door for someone who ISNT qualified to get a BB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shu2jack
    I would much rather see more rigorous training methods and competition-based requirements for promotion than time requirements.
    The style is based on more rigorous training already. Thats been decided. Why does it have to be either or?
    If we have a large competition base then a practitoner who wins over and over and over in his division can move up quickly. If they dont compete or suck at it then you can use a time in grade system.
    Not everyone wants to compete. Therefore the time in grade as a back up.

    It will also enocurage people to compete. [having the incentive of doing well in competition for faster advancement].






    So we have a belt system of white, yellow, orange, green, purple, blue, brown , red, red black (poom) and Black.
    Under 13 gets the same colors but with black stripes in the middle. Under 13 BB get a BB with a white stripe.
    One pattern for each rank.
    Physical requirements for rank advancement.
    Competition enhanced advancement.
    Allow elbows, knees, and foot sweeps.
    Not sure about clinch work.
  3. Shu2jack is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2007 6:50am


     Style: AMAI TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34


    Because there still needs to be some modicum of time in a grade. If you let one guy get a BB in 2 years that opens up the door for someone who ISNT qualified to get a BB.
    I didn't say let anyone get a black belt in two years. I said no time requirements. By putting in a time requirement you open up the door for someone who isn't qualified to get a BB in "x" amount of time.

    I trained at a place called the "Warrior's Cove". A GJJ/MMA school. They hold promotional classes every month than anyone can attend. The highest ranking guys I have seen there are 1 black belt and 3 blue belts (one step below black) and the blue belts had been doing it for 5 years. They also owned people in grappling.



    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34

    The style is based on more rigorous training already. Thats been decided. Why does it have to be either or?
    If we have a large competition base then a practitoner who wins over and over and over in his division can move up quickly. If they dont compete or suck at it then you can use a time in grade system.
    Not everyone wants to compete. Therefore the time in grade as a back up.
    Not everyone wants to compete? Not everyone wants to work hard, but they have to do it to earn rank.

    If the style was based on a more rigorous training system, we wouldn't see so many fat black belts. I believe that martial artists that compete tend to be in better shape than those that don't. They almost have to be in order to win. If you partially base promotion on competition.....
  4. cyril is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/08/2007 2:54pm


     Style: No-Gi BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would like to add in that the Time Requirement is almost necessary for some people.

    You may be able to Muay Thai your way into competitions with the current rule set you've got. The Time means that they'll have to actually practice TKD for a specific period of time in order to raise in rank. If you make physical fitness the grade level, you're going to suffer in technique, if you make technique the grade level, the fitness will PROBABLY (not always) suffer. The Time Requirement is a way to make it that every Professional MMA fighter can't immediately claim rights to a black belt because they can break **** with their testicles.

    Time Requirement is a must. The question is whether it is a concrete one or not.

    Concrete being a time requirement such as 3 months minimum to testing. A soft one would be it takes your normal BJJ BB 10 years to rank because the art is that hard.

    The problem with the soft time requirement (Which by and large is more preferrable) is that when quality suffers, so does the soft time requirement. It's the reason that TKD is full of fetal black belts and pig warriors and what have you.

    Quality control in a martial art is like a restaurant. It has to be constant and ever vigilant.

    I vote for concrete time requirement. It's not as practical, but it does make for better training when TKD is concerned.
  5. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/08/2007 2:57pm

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     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Ok, here we go.

    It seems that the general consensus here on Bullshido is that TKD sucks. Many reasons are given from patterns/forms training to weak sparring practices.
    Granted these critcisms are often true of most TKD schools and many TKD organizations.

    Most everyone here will agree that with "alive" training, and a more "Martial Art" oriented mind set, then almost any style can become effective.

    It seems to me that in order to bring TKD back on track to a more SD capable style, we must start a new style of TKD.
    Karate has many dufferent styles as well as Kung Fu. Most seem to be in the same category as TKD, but there are a few (Kyokushin Karate) that seem to value good hard sparring and realistic training practices. [I dont mention a KF style as I am not sure that Sanchin is KF, I know only what I read here of KF]

    So if starting a new style of TKD will help, then how does one go about it?

    I would like for this to be a serious discussion on the topic.

    Here is a list of things that I think we need right off.

    1) A name. I feel that it must be [insert style here] Tae Kwon Do.

    2) A belt system. Lots of people like belt systems, and TKD is what is considered a TMA.
    White, Yellow, Orange, Green, Purple, Blue, Brown, Red, Poom [Red/Black] and BB.

    2a) Each belt has physical requirements the practitioner MUST meet before being able to test for the next belt.
    For instance, I think that a BB should be able to kick an equal sized [height] opponent in the head. PERIOD. If you cant, then you shouldnt be a BB.
    I also dont feel that anyone under the age of 13 should get a BB. They can get a junior BB, say a BB with a stripe on it, but only if they are able to fullfill the physical requirements. Possibly let them be a BB if they are capable. I dont know.

    2b) We must set the PR {physical Requirements} so that it is safe to assume that no one under 13 will be able to perform them.

    2c) Time in grade. I think 3 years is a little soon to reach a BB level in any art. However, I am not sure about how to do belt promotions. Should we go to the merit system? (You are very good so you get promoted). I dont like that one because it opens itself up to "the good 'ol boy" system. I prefer say 5-6 months in grade before being eligible to test.

    2d) PR's.....push ups, sit ups, jumping jacks, flexibilty. SO many of each p/up and s/ups in a a set amount of time, be able to do j/jacks for a set amount of time without stopping. Have flexibilty requirements.
    As I said earlier, each belt will have different requirements.

    3) Sparring. Many schools allow their students to start sparring in class at green belt. (about 6-9 months after starting.) I think one should be able to spar right away.

    3a) Limit the techniques each belt can do [see 3b]. This way they can learn control, timing and other things, and gain new techniques at each belt.

    3b) Allow takedowns . NO GRAPPLING. If someone wants to learn to grapple, then they should take the proper art for it. Simple leg sweeps and trips, no throws. Also allow elbows and knees and low kicks. These are already in the patterns (no they havent been discovered by me).

    3c) Harder contact sparring. Require shin and foot protection (MT pads for example, but there are other style gear) no shitty dipped foam hand gear. Good gloves, Say boxing style gloves for lower ranks and MMA style gloves for higher tanks who have sweeps and takedowns. No headgear or dobaks.

    4) Patterns.... This is TKD, so it HAS to to have patterns. They are required for each belt level, but they wont be the main focus of class. Of course, anyone should be able to learn and be proficient at a pattern in 6 months time without spending lots of time in class on them.

    5) Class time. No less than 1 hour. This will depend largely on each individual school.

    6) An Organization. While I feel that large Organizations have their drawbacks, they can have one good plus. Rank certification. BB need to be ertified through the main Organization. Each instructor will be certified by the Org. to ensure quality control.
    Of course, the finer points of this can come later, after we iron out the style.

    There is more that I am sure is needed, so please feel free to contribute.
    Do whatever Errant108 does for his Iron Wheel Fist. Just do whatever he decides as the current God of TKD.
  6. ToUnderstand is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2007 5:45pm


     Style: TaeKwonDo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Instead of doing jumping jacks why not replace it with heavy bag conditioning. Instead of doing a set amount of jumping jacks for three minutes the practitioner should should strike the heavy bag continuously with power and proper technique, alternating between kicks, elbows and maybe even head butts lol. I believe this will be alot more effective for conditioning than jumping jacks.

    Also i think for better quality control for BB's we should implement a 25 man tournement for each black belt thats tests. The individual that is testing to receive his/her black belt should pass all physical requirements in addition to defeating a set number of opponents from his/her 25 or so opponents. Personally i think it should be a full contact bout with 1 and a half minute rounds to discourage stalling, and victory will be decided by a point system(not slappy point sparring) with knockdowns by striking constituting an absoulute victory clean powerful punches would be a quarter of a point, Kicks would be half a point, knees would be half a point, elbows half a point, takedowns would be half a point. But to encourage knockdowns we should allow 10/25 knockdowns as a automatic pass, those who can not accomplish this must accumulate a set number of points after the 25 fights in order to recieve BB. Also the testee is olny allowed to be knocked down 5 time after that he/she must wait till another test time. To make the test even more challenging the PR test should happen after the fights.
  7. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/08/2007 7:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cyril
    Time means that they'll have to actually practice TKD for a specific period of time in order to raise in rank.
    Thats what I was thinking too. I just lack the intelligence to put it in writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    Do whatever Errant108 does for his Iron Wheel Fist. Just do whatever he decides as the current God of TKD.
    But then I couldnt be Grand Poobah Soke. BTW, just for your sassy ass comments, you cant join my club.

    :)

    Quote Originally Posted by ToUnderstand
    Instead of doing jumping jacks why not replace it with heavy bag conditioning. Instead of doing a set amount of jumping jacks for three minutes the practitioner should should strike the heavy bag continuously with power and proper technique, alternating between kicks, elbows and maybe even head butts lol. I believe this will be alot more effective for conditioning than jumping jacks.
    Its hard to judge proper power and technique when they are being thrown quickly at a bag. JJ's is an easy standard for every school to implement.
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