Is Push Hands(really different then ChiSau in the long run?

[Jack Rusher]

So the real tai chi does not have a circular moving drill with the arms pushing together and movement being done from the trunk only?

One begins training push hands with a circular single arm drill that uses leg -> hip -> shoulder -> arm -> hand linkage for absorption and generation of power (the opposite of isolating some part of that chain). One then moves to more or less the same drill with two arms. Both of these drills are done with the feet planted — this is probably where you got the "you moved your foot, you lose!" idea. These two exercises are the earliest preparatory stage for the actual drill, which comes to look something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-eM1-3ew28

... although there's a very large skill disparity between these two, which makes it look more compliant than it is (the big guy is trying to resist, he just can't).

I am reading that Push Hands is the big term for all tai chi partner practice? while chi sau is just one of the many partner practice types in the chun?

Push hands (tui shou) goes through a series of stages that eventually blur into another practice called san shou ("free hand" or "free fighting"), which is a kind of everything goes sparring. The closest parallel I could give you is that tui shou is like chi sau while san shou is kind of like lat sau, only more so.

Also, they way I read you guys, it borderlines on not having any alive resistance, since that would be "winning" or "trying to prevent winning".

Okay, now I have to accuse you of being intentionally obtuse.

Aliveness: the other guy doesn't let you do what you're trying to do, and is, in fact, trying to do something to you at the same time. Chi sau, for instance, is an alive drive for teaching a student how to slap-fight. A slap-fighting form or compliant slap-fighting drills would not work as well for that purpose.

The problem with competition in the sense we're discussing is that it ultimately distorts the activity in question by shaping the practice toward the most effective means of winning the drill rather than the most effective means of improving the skill set the drill is meant to inculcate. Some examples: judo's short time limit on ne-waza warped judo away from martial practice by encouraging the lethal turtle technique; the "no face" rule in kyokushin sparring teaches students not to block the head; freestyle wrestling's lack of submissions leads wrestlers to give up chokes too easily; &c.

I really don't have the space in my life to continue this conversation. I wish you good training, and I hope you will arrange to do some full-contact sparring with a few experienced fighters from a Muay Thai or San Da background as a means of assessing your development. For instance, Cung Le's San Shou Academy is in San Jose — some of his ProAm fighters might be able to express these ideas more clearly in the ring than we have been able to do on the internet.

[Jack Rusher]

I've also seen some that look like the pummeling vid.

I think most CMA, and especially taiji, is easier to understand when it's viewed in the cultural context in which it developed. For example, shuai jiao is more popular in China than Collegiate Wrestling is here, and it has a history that stretches back into antiquity. So, of course, if everyone grows up playing a game that looks like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IjmnMaCk2Y

... they are going to have a much easier time understanding the purpose of drills like push hands, and are much less likely to get sucked into some kind of hippy-dippy bullshido.

Pummeling is great. We did it for freestyle wrestling when I was a boy, and we did it last night at BJJ practice. As for the relative merits of these two drills, I think they're both quite useful if practiced properly.

[Permalost]

Push hands comps are a bad idea all around, but the American comps are particularly divorced from the martial nature of the exercise. The film here does a nice job of outlining the differences between American and Chinese competitions:

http://pushingtheissue.com/

... though it does little to address the foolishness of distorting a drill in this manner.

Wow, I had no idea most push hands competitions were so limited. The only one of those rules I'm used to playing under is the rule against hooking the back. No excessive force? Tai chi chuan is not about avoiding the use of force, its about the intelligent use of force. Without using force, how are you representing genuine resistance? No throws? Most TCC applications as I've learned them are throws and their setups.

I'm not fundamentally against the idea of push hands divisions at tournaments, but specializing in tournament play should not be the focus of training. This is especially true with the weird limited rule structure. When we are training for a tournament, we go into "tournament mode" where we try to immediately go forpoints as fast as possible right after circling. I think this is good occasionally, but this is not where the learning happens.

[Jack Rusher]

Without using force, how are you representing genuine resistance?

Bingo. I think the "no force" mentality of the American tournament scene is a result of the hippy-dippy "magical powers" mindset that's so common among IMA practitioners here. "It's about effortless chi power!" Ugh...

I'm not fundamentally against the idea of push hands divisions at tournaments, but specializing in tournament play should not be the focus of training.

Because so few people fight, the success of students in push hands becomes the big "face" issue for IMA sifus who have no other way to prove that they've taught their students well. Proper training vanishes when this collides with the weird ruleset mentioned above.

[Tom Kagan]

jackrusher, that's a very good short film.

Interestingly, I don't see much of anything in the Chinese Competitions which I wouldn't allow in ChiSao. (In fact, I have a classmate, Micky Chan, who rather enjoys tossing people instead of striking.)

As far as whether "competition" is a good or bad development for Tai Chi TsuiSao (and, also, I guess, for Ving Tsun ChiSao), I'd be willing to bet serious money that, if there was a time machine, we would discover the same argument going on when Jigoro Kano used his Judo/Jujitsu Randori as the basis to start showcasing his and others versions of the art by organizing it to fit a Shiai format. It all comes down to whether the rule set for competition is any good - and whether there is any progression to less restrictive formats.

Edit:

However, calling a Competitiion "ChiSao" is a bit of a misnomer. In addition to it being a drill, I've been taught that more generally, ChiSao can be translated as "practice." Thus, it would include all Ving Tsun modalities - LookSao, LeiTai ChiSao, TsuiMa ChiSao, ChiSao, ChernKiuSao, SanSao, and ChiGerk. Competition - or "testing", I'd call a MaaiSeungJong (which literally translates as "bring the dummy to life").

[Permalost]

I don't know if anyone made the distinction, but there's two different types of push hands that are practiced in a tournament format (as I've practiced at least). There's fixed step, where you start with three circles in a bow stance and the feet are not allowed to move, except for one shuffle in either direction, and you achieve points by pushing the person off balace or bringing them to a hand or knee. Then there's moving step, which is where you see them in the ring As I've learned it, points are gained by throwing the person, pushing them out of the ring without going out yourself, or pushing them more than two steps off balance. Hooking the back, strikes, joint locks and reaping/grapevine type throws are illegal.

[Dr._Tzun_Tzu]

One begins training push hands with a circular single arm drill that uses leg -> hip -> shoulder -> arm -> hand linkage for absorption and generation of power (the opposite of isolating some part of that chain). One then moves to more or less the same drill with two arms. Both of these drills are done with the feet planted — this is probably where you got the "you moved your foot, you lose!" idea. These two exercises are the earliest preparatory stage for the actual drill, which comes to look something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-eM1-3ew28

... although there's a very large skill disparity between these two, which makes it look more compliant than it is (the big guy is trying to resist, he just can't).

Cool clip. Yes the beginning of the drills is what I have been talking about. Are these guys still in tui shou or has it moved/ blured into san shou

Push hands (tui shou) goes through a series of stages that eventually blur into another practice called san shou ("free hand" or "free fighting"), which is a kind of everything goes sparring. The closest parallel I could give you is that tui shou is like chi sau while san shou is kind of like lat sau, only more so.

So "push Hands" should really be only Tui Shou before it becomes free hand work. I agree, and I have been only comparing the starting points Poon Sau in WT, which comes after single arm drills with stepping and turns.

The problem with competition ........

exactly. Competition is only good if you can continue training without modifying to fit the test. When you train for the test it stops being a good test.

I really don't have the space in my life to continue this conversation. I wish you good training, and I hope you will arrange to do some full-contact sparring with a few experienced fighters from a Muay Thai or San Da background as a means of assessing your development.

I do it and have done it every couple of years or so. Judo is next on my list.

However, calling a Competitiion "ChiSao" is a bit of a misnomer. In addition to it being a drill, I've been taught that more generally, ChiSao can be translated as "practice." Thus, it would include all Ving Tsun modalities - LookSao, LeiTai ChiSao, TsuiMa ChiSao, ChiSao, ChernKiuSao, SanSao, and ChiGerk. Competition - or "testing", I'd call a MaaiSeungJong (which literally translates as "bring the dummy to life").

Cool, So basically then Push hands means All of tai chi practice and Chi Sau means all of _ing __un practice. Tai Chi in not Wing Whatever, so they are in fact different excersises.

Push hands is different then Chi Sau.

[It is Fake]

Cool, So basically then Push hands means All of tai chi practice and Chi Sau means all of _ing __un practice. Tai Chi in not Wing Whatever, so they are in fact different excersises.

No.

Push hands is different then Chi Sau.

No.

[Jack Rusher]

Cool clip. Yes the beginning of the drills is what I have been talking about. Are these guys still in tui shou or has it moved/ blured into san shou?

It's still tui shou because they begin in contact. The main difference — and, in my opinion, stumbling block to transferring skills — between tui shou and san shou is bridging. Taiji fighters — and I'd be surprised if this weren't also true for chunners — tend to go through a small crisis when they move from drills that start in contact to ones in which they must establish contact. In my limited understanding this happens at the chi sau/lat sau line for chunners.

Push hands =/= Chi Sau.

I'm reading this as a desire to make an ontological assertion of the form "push hands is a sensitivity drill with sticking, strikes and throws used to drill taiji principles, while chi sau is a sensitivity drill with sticking, strikes and throws used to drill chun principles, thus they are different drills." While no one here will claim that push hands teaches chun principles or that chi sau teaches taiji principles, this assertion is what a logician would call "trivially true," which is to say that it's both obvious and pointless.

[It is Fake]

I'm reading this as a desire to make an ontological assertion of the form "push hands is a sensitivity drill with sticking, strikes and throws used to drill taiji principles, while chi sau is a sensitivity drill with sticking, strikes and throws used to drill chun principles, thus they are different drills." While no one here will claim that push hands teaches chun principles or that chi sau teaches taiji principles, this assertion is what a logician would call "trivially true," which is to say that it's both obvious and pointless.

Thank you. Nowhere have any of us said Tai Chi=WC. There is a particular drill that is very similar.

Let me say it again Push Hands and Chi Sau try to do the exact same thing. They are similar.

Tom made fun of me so I'm going to show you how ridiculious this discussion is now. This is why JR said you are being obtuse

Pushhands looks like it is a bigger system in the beginning and Chi Sau seems to be a "lesser" or smaller isolated set of Push Hands. This is incorrect. They both merge to share the others aspects in the advanced programs.

Finally, we finish here.

Push hands is different then Chi Sau.

So, I'm officially done unless someone reports a post. Before you say well after listening I changed my mind you didn't.

I'm to lazy today to go through and quote everything but people said why they didn't like the Chi Sau.

You answered by correcting everyone how Chi Sau does this like push hands it does that like pushands.

When you saw the similarities, you suddenly switched to well I was talking about basics. Funny thing is, when Jack broke down the basics, you said you start similarly in the chun.