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  1. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2007 10:52am


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In the interest of further demonstrating the existence of chi sau-esque practices in various non-chun CMA, here's a clip of Yao Cheng Rong training [WIKI]yiquan[/WIKI] that should look familiar to any chunner (up to and including the final kick):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y_JHvRKp6M

    Here's the same guy working a redirection and pushing (without strikes) drill that turns into some of the striking seen in the previous clip:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQNakQFI7L4

    ... this drill, fa li, uses pushes instead of punches to train power generation in a relatively safe way. It also builds sensitivity for stand-up grappling, clinch work, and so on, as per comments by Mr Kagan.

    I think this kind of thing is what we were collectively trying to point out in the face of claims to the uniqueness of the chi sau training method.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2007 11:03am

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you Jack. This was my next task. WC/WT isn't as exclusive as people think. I'm still looking for videos of Sticky legs training which, exists in Mantis and a similar exercise in Tai Chi.

    Wooden Dummy sets exist in to many arts to count.
  3. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2007 11:58am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    chi sau elements also exist in stand up grappling. and swing dancing.

    I am not looking at the common elements, I am looking at the minor differences. Those video are the same type of hand movements or combos learned in the chun, maybe a little different footwork then in WT, but still the same stuff. but those are not Push Hands videos, those are applications. Where is the push hands section for this?

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2007 12:46pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    See it doesn't work that way. If you wanted to discuss the technicalities of Chi Sau you should've started a thread on that subject.

    Instead you started a thread called "Is Push Hands(really different then ChiSau in the long run?"
    Guess what?

    That means Push Hand videos, as a comparison, belong in this thread.

    I'm sorry your introduction to Push Hands was a competition champion. Unfortunately, I must say now your training was BULLSHIT.

    We aren't supposed to have competitive chin na.
    We aren't supposed to have focus mitt Competitions.
    We aren't supposed to have Chi Sau comps.
    We aren't supposed to have Push Hands Comps.

    These are all drills that are supposed to make you a better fighter. Once the element of competition enters you **** up the entire drill.

    How can you work on sensitivity when you are worried about looking bad?
    How can you work on unbalancing when you are worried about winning the gold?


    Drills should never be turned into competition. EVER.
  5. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2007 12:54pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Those video are the same type of hand movements or combos learned in the chun, maybe a little different footwork then in WT, but still the same stuff.
    Okay, this feels like progress toward a common understanding. Let's try to isolate the differences...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    but those are not Push Hands videos, those are applications. Where is the push hands section for this?
    The second video is pure push hands as it is conducted by liquan practitioners. It looks more like xingyi push hands than like what you probably think of as push hands, but that's what it is.

    There's a progression in liquan from fa li solo exercises (the pullling hands and bag work stuff at the start) to push hands, to a form of push hands that features strikes. In taiji it ultimately becomes "sticky body" with strikes, throws and everything else except for ne-waza.

    So... if it's a "sticking" drill that includes stepping, striking and throws, how is it philosophically different from chi sau/lat sau? My impression is that the differences are in which techniques are emphasized, what body mechanics are used to power the techniques, and whether or not certain strategies are encouraged (for instance, "chain punches").
  6. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2007 12:58pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    These are all drills that are supposed to make you a better fighter. Once the element of competition enters you **** up the entire drill.
    Absolutely. Do not become diverted into practicing with the goal of "winning" a drill that is ultimately an abstraction for fighting. Remain focused on winning the fights themselves.
  7. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2007 12:10am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I haven't read this whole thread, but I've got a story to share based purely on the title:

    So I'm downtown with a friend of mine, and we talk to these two homeless guys. We sing "big rock candy mountain" while rockin out on a stringless guitar used as a drum (my friend was homeless for a while, and gets along extraordinarily well with them). For some reason my friend mentions that I've studied kung fu for quite some time. One of them asks if I know sticky hands. I tell him I've never done wing chun, but I play push hands and if he shows me how I'll try it. He shows me some setup with the forearms touching, and the goal, as he tells me, is to touch your targets while controlling the opponent's ability to attack. I pick it up really fast because of my push hands background. My friend keeps gesturing towards me, but I can't tell why. After I'm done playing, the guy asks if I'd teach him. I said I'd see him around. Eventually I heard from my friend that the guy I played with had wet his pants at some point.

    There are two reasons I tell this story:
    1. The push hands background made sticky hands easier to pick up, if what this guy was showing me was in fact chi sao. Basically I modified the inside+underneath strategy of push hands into strikes, with some hubud stuff.
    2. Its a pretty funny story.
  8. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2007 1:57am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    That means Push Hand videos, as a comparison, belong in this thread.

    I'm sorry your introduction to Push Hands was a competition champion. Unfortunately, I must say now your training was BULLSHIT.

    We aren't supposed to have competitive chin na.
    We aren't supposed to have focus mitt Competitions.
    We aren't supposed to have Chi Sau comps.
    We aren't supposed to have Push Hands Comps.

    These are all drills that are supposed to make you a better fighter. Once the element of competition enters you **** up the entire drill.

    How can you work on sensitivity when you are worried about looking bad?
    How can you work on unbalancing when you are worried about winning the gold?


    Drills should never be turned into competition. EVER.
    I am not sure if thats the best excuse ever for why no Chunners entire MMA or if you mean to say that "push hands" as it is done in the west (California) is not the "real" push hands?

    I do fully agree about the concept that drills can not be competions and that drills are abstractions to improve FIGHTING and not to just improve the drills, which is the end result of Drill Compition.

    that doesn't mean you can not have contests. I think its called sparring sometimes...


    but push hands as It is popularly held was not those drills, and it is the general misunderstanding of that and chi sau, both being labeled "sticky" which lead to this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    There's a progression in liquan from fa li solo exercises (the pullling hands and bag work stuff at the start) to push hands, to a form of push hands that features strikes. In taiji it ultimately becomes "sticky body" with strikes, throws and everything else except for ne-waza.

    So... if it's a "sticking" drill that includes stepping, striking and throws, how is it philosophically different from chi sau/lat sau? My impression is that the differences are in which techniques are emphasized, what body mechanics are used to power the techniques, and whether or not certain strategies are encouraged (for instance, "chain punches").
    I guess I need to make a video of what I mean.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  9. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2007 2:44am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wrote an article once in IKF which outlined the form/drill/spar method of progression in MA. In WT it is Form/Section/Application, with the sections being the chi sau program. WT has footage of applications such as you posted for "Push hands". Often all of WT training is called Chi Sau, since the applications are made up of the movements in the chi sau sections, so maybe this is how you mean Push Hands? in the broad sense?

    "Chi Sau is not a contest" is an old Motto.

    So I edited this up real quick with video I took last night.

    What is called "push hands" to many people is this drill, as compaired to chi sau. I realize I have the bullshit Tai Chi, but what is this derived from in your perspective?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDSxTn95nSw

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2007 10:46am

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    "Chi Sau is not a contest" is an old Motto.
    Tai chi has a similar motto.


    All I have to do is look at thousands of WT videos to tell you that is not true.


    What is called "push hands" to many people is this drill, as compaired to chi sau. I realize I have the bullshit Tai Chi, but what is this derived from in your perspective?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDSxTn95nSw
    Your explanation and set up is so wrong it is retarded. I'm sorry if someone wants to correct you they can.

    Now I know your comp person was full of ****. What they showed you is the worse set of push hands I've ever seen in my life. The fact you say it is the exact opposite is laughable. What you have shown me is the shitty "literal" definition of push hands which I have only seen in competition.

    Fingertips are the most sensitive that is the reason Tai Chi tries to stay away from hands touching. You develop sensitivity in your arms through push hands to help you in the clinch range. It helps you read shifts in balance that occur when you brush arms or block someone in real sparring.

    Now, I understand why you are so adamant that Chi Sau is different from Push Hands.
    My favorite part is watching your hands be static the entire time until, you post an attack. Then you turn around and say Tai Chi s about the body and the the hands stay still.
    You need to find a real push hands teacher and get back to us. I'm really starting to think that lady taught you wrong on purpose or like most teachers didn't bother because, you didn't listen.

    Damn man watch your own video.


    See this is god awful. They have developed a rythm.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZqdxHIwnPM


    See this is godawful it is a competition.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSAFbgGiWY4


    You lose all functionality of a drill when you compete. Oh yes there are Chi Sau comps so don't say anything.
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