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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 6:18pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't worry it won't. As long as you reference your style, like you and DTT, it is cool. If it gets silly the offending posts will be removed.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 6:45pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most CS, for me is to linear. It should be more free roaming. No, I'm not saying all yet, it is rare to encounter a school that doesn't do the step forward step back chi sau.


    Yes, in another thread we discuss problems with push hands so, I have problems with both.
  3. Jack Rusher is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 7:34pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Arbiter
    The style of wing chun that i learned is a mainland style called Gu Lao , also known as 'turning style' which does direct the movement from the dan tien (ok, i feel silly saying it too).
    Silly dan tien aside, will you be coming down to the NYC KingSize Throwdown in September? I'd like to see and more importantly, feel how that branch does the drill. It has always seemed weird to me that _ing _un lacked body power, so it'd be quite cool to see a flavor that has it.
  4. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 8:49pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Locu5
    It seems (to me at least) that in push hands, the torso is the center of movement, while in chi sao, the torso is relegated to the center of reference, but the body motions seem disconnected from the (may Helio forgive me) dan tien. Is that an accurate representation?

    This is exactly the difference in the beginner introduction. Where each style goes from there is different, but I guess if you reverse the roles it is a true statement inthe middle level training too. I wish I could write such short explanations....

    It simple boils down to whether you keep your centerline lined up constanly(WT) or if you instead rotate our centerline sight on and off target to generate Torque.

    but wait theres more: In the I-Ching their are 2 sets invovling movement, one which discribes the embolizized spine and only limb movement while the other discribes torso movements while the limbs are held "still" but moved arouund via the twisting of the spine. This is where the ridged distinction comes from, the two starting points.

    Tai Chi and the Chun are two closely related on one point, that the torso is held stable. Both hold the torso very stableand generate movents from the hip and shoulder socket rotion, it just that of refuses to allow the shoulder to stop being squared up while the other is willing to twist the shoulders for power.

    In EBMAS we use Latosa Escrima for a comparison point, specifically movemnets over more fixed legs and arms doing movemens generated by the torso. WT can be thought of starting as focused on the movements of the hip sockets and of the shoulder sockets, with rapid extensions of the arms, and driving from the heel instead of the ballof the foot. Latosa Escrima begins with a focus of moving with the knee and ankle, while striking with the arms helded fixed at the elbow to put energy out into a stick. This uses all the twists and bends of the shoulder and upper torso that seems missing from WT, but elbow extension is reduced, and it uses the boobing and dropping via the knee joint and work on the ball of the foot.

    Tai Chi makes a great third MA to complete the EBMAS triangle but most people are opting for BJJ these days.

    So my understanding of Push Hands from Tai Chi Chuan is that its empty hand sets also lead into weapons, but the empty hand set has more broad approach. WT has a refined extremely specific approach. Both lead to weapons where you find the core movents of all MA. Latosa Escrima is FMA so it is all weapons. It starts with short stick and works around various lengths and combinatons untill you are left with a simple empty hand set the is common to all MA. It would be like learning Tai Chi Sord first, and then working backwards to learn the push hands and heatlth form.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  5. Kubili is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 11:39pm

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     Style: Searching

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We use push hands as a drill that leads to sweeps, throws and joint locks. We still go more physical than we should. It's always easier to take the drill to a harder more bruising experience. Great fun though.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/28/2007 10:48am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    So my understanding of Push Hands from Tai Chi Chuan is that its empty hand sets also lead into weapons, but the empty hand set has more broad approach. WT has a refined extremely specific approach. Both lead to weapons where you find the core movents of all MA. Latosa Escrima is FMA so it is all weapons. It starts with short stick and works around various lengths and combinatons untill you are left with a simple empty hand set the is common to all MA. It would be like learning Tai Chi Sord first, and then working backwards to learn the push hands and heatlth form.
    Define Broad.

    Tai Chi is very specific when taught correctly.
  7. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2007 2:17pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Define Broad.

    Tai Chi is very specific when taught correctly.
    OK, yes. So by broad I mean full range of movement vs WT which isolates a specific range. The WT centerline theory and the concepts in Latosa Escrima, which in EBMAS represent the opposite ends of the range of movement, are specific to the edges of the human movement range, which forms a spectrum. Tai Chi begins in the middle of this movement spectrum, so it has a broader beginning concept.

    example: WT works from the "far back as you can be on your heel and still fight" stance while Latosa works from "up on the balls in the front of the foot" drop knees fight stance. Each then works across the foot as you progress in the system, WT up into the balls of the foot and LWS back into a empty handed back stance.

    Both of these can be looked at as 100% weight. Other styles starting in the center generally think of 50/50 weight.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/28/2007 2:32pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay.

    Please read or find a different book/teacher. You are making many assumptions that aren't true about Tai Chi.

    The 50/50 weight is frowned upon in many books and styles of Tai Chi. They call it Double weighted if I recall correctly and it is a no no.

    Tai Chi begins in the middle of this movement spectrum, so it has a broader beginning concept.
    Again not really. If you are learning a good style of Tai Chi it is very strict. Now, cullion and others can detail there experiences but, mine was different.

    Find some vids explaining your point then explain what they are lacking. I'll do the same because right now, you are way off base in explaining what you perceive as the differences.

    It could be you are trying to be way to technical.
  9. Tonuzaba is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/28/2007 3:01pm

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     Style: (Beautiful) Spring Roll

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Locu5
    At some point in push hands, after basic structure and movement is taught, it becomes a bit more freeform, in that both parties can move around and "take" what opportunities occur. It seems that chi sao does not get to this point, and instead stays focused on that particular reference frame. Is that a fair understanding?
    Glad we both found this place...
    I've only seen Tai chi push hands on video, never trained in it, so can't really compare.

    But WT chi sau does move into freeform training at a later stage.
    Since chi sau is a unique approach, people have to get the basics before they can move on.
    First they have to learn how to feel the energy of the opponent's arms and body and simultaneously they have to be on a certain level basic technique-wise, chi sau for the sake of rolling arms is not what is or should be taught in GM Leung Ting's WT system.

    So it takes a certain time until a trainee can
    1. feel the opponents energy and learn to react in time
    2. utilize techniques succesfully - avoid the incoming attack and execute his own attack with success.

    This includes arm-, and neck-pulling, footwork, even kicks, throws and sweeps later on.
    However, the basic poon sau (rolling arms) excersice is all what most non-chunning people + people who only studied the chun shortly have ever seen, and thus it's easy for them to make wrong assumptions about chi sau.

    There are sections, which teach preset scenarios and then there's combining of the techniques from the sections freely. Then you add footwork, kicks and you're looking forward a nice alive chi sau training.
    Also, you can train chi sau with different approaches/goals in mind. Poon sau can even be a nice little muscle toning activity, if you only roll arms while intensifiying the energy flow towards your partner.

    CLICK & WATCH
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    "Bruce Lee sucks because I slammed my nuts with nunchucks trying to do that stupid **** back in the day. I still managed to have two kids. I forgive you Bruce.
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  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/28/2007 3:52pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonuzaba
    Glad we both found this place...
    I've only seen Tai chi push hands on video, never trained in it, so can't really compare.
    That is usually the case with most of us.

    But WT chi sau does move into freeform training at a later stage.
    Since chi sau is a unique approach, people have to get the basics before they can move on.
    First they have to learn how to feel the energy of the opponent's arms and body and simultaneously they have to be on a certain level basic technique-wise, chi sau for the sake of rolling arms
    Same with Push hands


    So it takes a certain time until a trainee can
    1. feel the opponents energy and learn to react in time
    2. utilize techniques succesfully - avoid the incoming attack and execute his own attack with success.

    This includes arm-, and neck-pulling, footwork, even kicks, throws and sweeps later on.
    However, the basic poon sau (rolling arms) excersice is all what most non-chunning people + people who only studied the chun shortly have ever seen, and thus it's easy for them to make wrong assumptions about chi sau.
    Same as push hands.

    There are sections, which teach preset scenarios and then there's combining of the techniques from the sections freely. Then you add footwork, kicks and you're looking forward a nice alive chi sau training.
    Also, you can train chi sau with different approaches/goals in mind. Poon sau can even be a nice little muscle toning activity, if you only roll arms while intensifiying the energy flow towards your partner.
    Same with tai chi.

    DTT is getting close but, like with most style defenders, they want their art to have some form of exclusivity. When or if the blinders lift DTT will understand and grow as a Martial artist.


    Yes, I studied WC (not far enough to get to free form Chi Sau) and Tai Chi.

    So, they are much more similar in principle than the way they look. Centerline theory exists in Tai Chi although, the term is used almost exclusively in the Chun.

    No, DTT this isn't a dig at you. It is a problem inherent in all martial art disciplines. It just rears its head more in TMA and TCMA especially.
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