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View Poll Results: Should I crank these submissions?

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119. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, you are a *****. Tap or snap.

    10 8.40%
  • No, you are being reasonable. Safety first.

    109 91.60%
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  1. ClintEQ is offline
    ClintEQ's Avatar

    Rolls With Sweaty Men!

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 12:59am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's funny, I had basically the exact opposite experience today.

    I've been resentful of one of the guys I train with, but it almost came to a head about an hour ago.

    He is a two stripe white belt, and I am a lowly one stripe. That said, my instructor does not care very much about stripes. He often hands out two at once, openly admitting he had forgotten about the first one, or that he was just trying to motivate the guy.

    I am a lot bigger than him- he's probably somewhere between 130-150 lbs. Anyway, he always coaches me when I am on the mats with other guys. I don't mind when blue belts do this, hell, I wouldn't mind if a white belt did this and he really had something useful to say. But this guy just plain gives me dumb advice.

    For example, I was rolling with a guy who is close to 300 lbs, and I couldn't manage to get my second hook in on him, so I just triangled my legs around his left leg while looking for the choke or a twister. He started yelling "No! No! You need to put your right leg around his waist!". I stopped, turned, and told him, "I know", right as the other guy switched his weight so I could finally get the hook in, and I subsequently armbarred him. Based on this, he seems to think he has carte blanche to "coach" me.

    Maybe that wouldn't really bug me, but the one time we rolled before tonight, I put him in a triangle from guard, swept him with it, then switched to an armbar for the tap. It lasted all of a minute.

    Today, I'd rolled for about 10 min, and was exhausted, when he came up to me on the mats and asked if I wanted to roll. I accepted, hoping I could get him to realize that he isn't qualified to keep coaching me.

    First round, he pulls guard, I pass in about 15 seconds, take side control, start to put him in a kimura, and he taps before my hands are even locked.

    Second round, same exact thing.

    I'm mildly annoyed that he is tapping before the submissions are even close, as I don't really get a sense of the mechanics of finishing them/fighting potential escapes from a little flexible guy like him. But I get REALLY annoyed when he then procedes to tell me that "You are using your strength way too much".

    Prior to rolling with him, I had been rolling with that same guy who is close to 300 lbs. He was on top of me the entire time, even went to knee on belly for a while, and somehow instead of complaining to him that he was using his strength, I just focused on trying to use my technique to beat him. I didn't manage to sub him, and I got dominated position wise, but I viewed it as good practice and didn't complain.

    So I decided to be pretty blunt, and looked him in the eyes and said "Ok. You start on top". I went to my back, swept him in 5 seconds from butterfly guard, and went directly to an armbar and tapped him like nothing.

    I went to my back again to repeat this process, and he said "No, no, you start on top". I passed to his half guard, and as I was working to side control, I used a half nelson to try to turn him to his back, though I put barely anything on it because of the weight disparity. He immediately tapped and yelled at me "Watch the neck crank!" and quit.

    But not before telling me that he didn't like the way I was using my hands when trying to get underhooks, and I needed to point my fingers differently to really get them well.

    I feel bad for letting ego come into my training, as I work really hard not to do that, but I guess this just really rubbed me the wrong way. Am I being the dick in this situation?
      #11
  2. The Buzz is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 3:11am


     Style: BJJ, TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know this isn't the case, but I hate people that try to hurt people intentionally. Luckily the worst experience I had was when I was fairly new and some first time BJJ wrestler kid that got me in a headlock which is usually harmless in Jiu-Jitsu but he was in kind of a side control position and just started doing this retarded full speed circle scoot that reminded me of something from the three stooges streching my head away from my shoulders. My problem was I could not tap for a few seconds B/C of getting an arm freed and my face was in his side so verbal was out of the question. It was his first BJJ class, and you could really tell. I was not mad nor held any resentment even though I could feel the vertebrae/disks in my neck stretching out and I had pain for a few months but just toughed it out. He wasn't trying to injure me and I knew it, stuff happens.

    That being said anyone new should learn the first thing is to tap by whatever means acceptable. I can fight submissions and sometimes escape armbars, chokes, etc etc, but there is always a point I will call it when I'm caught in an eminent sub before the joint or area is in serious injury danger. I can't stress enough than new players need to be taught this otherwise we will end up dancing around tapping people with chi balls and compliant akido out of fear. The realism and aliveness of BJJ is what makes it great, and IMO building/having trust between you and your fellow players is what will help everyone improve.

    If these guys were really being hardasses you did the right thing, but their attitude will cause problems and liability for everyone in the gym. I'm a lowly white belt but I have no problem talking about these things to newbs because I want to keep a realistic and enjoyable atmosphere for us to train in. And pretty much all of the time the people I talk to are open and appreciative of the advice, because though I am not a high belt, I know the basics and have been there and try to get that across to them. If they're are just being dicks trying to show how tough they are and are too stupid to tap go right to an instructor and explain and they will deal with it quickly.

    Best wishes
      #12
  3. The Buzz is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 3:23am


     Style: BJJ, TKD, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ClintEQ
    I am a lot bigger than him- he's probably somewhere between 130-150 lbs. Anyway, he always coaches me when I am on the mats with other guys. I don't mind when blue belts do this, hell, I wouldn't mind if a white belt did this and he really had something useful to say. But this guy just plain gives me dumb advice.
    Been there


    Quote Originally Posted by ClintEQ
    Prior to rolling with him, I had been rolling with that same guy who is close to 300 lbs. He was on top of me the entire time, even went to knee on belly for a while, and somehow instead of complaining to him that he was using his strength, I just focused on trying to use my technique to beat him. I didn't manage to sub him, and I got dominated position wise, but I viewed it as good practice and didn't complain.
    #1- Props for getting Knee on belly from a 300 pounder= OUCH!
    #2- Sounds like you have a great attitude to me


    Quote Originally Posted by ClintEQ

    I feel bad for letting ego come into my training, as I work really hard not to do that, but I guess this just really rubbed me the wrong way. Am I being the dick in this situation?
    From your explaining I would say you are not being a dick at all, you are working on proper tecnique and not using strength, and what you are doing is working as it should. He may be just trying to help (overenthusiastically), but you may just have to brush him off as much as possible and concentrate on applying what you are being taught regardless.
      #13
  4. jnp is offline
    jnp's Avatar

    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 7:26am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Buzz
    My problem was I could not tap for a few seconds B/C of getting an arm freed and my face was in his side so verbal was out of the question.
    You probably already know this, but for the uninformed, you can tap with any part of your body. I use my feet to tap the mat when my opponent has my upper body tied up.
    Shut the hell up and train.
      #14
  5. Devil is online now
    Devil's Avatar

    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 8:45am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ClintEQ
    It's funny, I had basically the exact opposite experience today.

    I've been resentful of one of the guys I train with, but it almost came to a head about an hour ago.

    He is a two stripe white belt, and I am a lowly one stripe. That said, my instructor does not care very much about stripes. He often hands out two at once, openly admitting he had forgotten about the first one, or that he was just trying to motivate the guy.

    I am a lot bigger than him- he's probably somewhere between 130-150 lbs. Anyway, he always coaches me when I am on the mats with other guys. I don't mind when blue belts do this, hell, I wouldn't mind if a white belt did this and he really had something useful to say. But this guy just plain gives me dumb advice.

    For example, I was rolling with a guy who is close to 300 lbs, and I couldn't manage to get my second hook in on him, so I just triangled my legs around his left leg while looking for the choke or a twister. He started yelling "No! No! You need to put your right leg around his waist!". I stopped, turned, and told him, "I know", right as the other guy switched his weight so I could finally get the hook in, and I subsequently armbarred him. Based on this, he seems to think he has carte blanche to "coach" me.

    Maybe that wouldn't really bug me, but the one time we rolled before tonight, I put him in a triangle from guard, swept him with it, then switched to an armbar for the tap. It lasted all of a minute.

    Today, I'd rolled for about 10 min, and was exhausted, when he came up to me on the mats and asked if I wanted to roll. I accepted, hoping I could get him to realize that he isn't qualified to keep coaching me.

    First round, he pulls guard, I pass in about 15 seconds, take side control, start to put him in a kimura, and he taps before my hands are even locked.

    Second round, same exact thing.

    I'm mildly annoyed that he is tapping before the submissions are even close, as I don't really get a sense of the mechanics of finishing them/fighting potential escapes from a little flexible guy like him. But I get REALLY annoyed when he then procedes to tell me that "You are using your strength way too much".

    Prior to rolling with him, I had been rolling with that same guy who is close to 300 lbs. He was on top of me the entire time, even went to knee on belly for a while, and somehow instead of complaining to him that he was using his strength, I just focused on trying to use my technique to beat him. I didn't manage to sub him, and I got dominated position wise, but I viewed it as good practice and didn't complain.

    So I decided to be pretty blunt, and looked him in the eyes and said "Ok. You start on top". I went to my back, swept him in 5 seconds from butterfly guard, and went directly to an armbar and tapped him like nothing.

    I went to my back again to repeat this process, and he said "No, no, you start on top". I passed to his half guard, and as I was working to side control, I used a half nelson to try to turn him to his back, though I put barely anything on it because of the weight disparity. He immediately tapped and yelled at me "Watch the neck crank!" and quit.

    But not before telling me that he didn't like the way I was using my hands when trying to get underhooks, and I needed to point my fingers differently to really get them well.

    I feel bad for letting ego come into my training, as I work really hard not to do that, but I guess this just really rubbed me the wrong way. Am I being the dick in this situation?

    Oh man, this is my biggest pet peeve! I always appreciate good advice, but I have on numerous occasions had people continuing to coach me while I'm kicking their ass. It drives me fucking nuts. I've experienced this with grappling and with standup.

    And I'm not even saying I don't value someone's opinion because they can't always beat me, but for Christ's sake - save it until we're done sparring.
      #15
  6. twKoxinga is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 9:27am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    one thing that i've heard from people better than me is as long as you're using a legit technique, and trying to use technique, it's all good. Strength is an attribute that should be used, just not without regard to skill. If you're doing a technique and using strength, but not forcing it, its legit.

    next time he says "oh you're using too much strength", just say, "stop trying to match my strength, and use technique to beat me then" or just tell him your feelings on the matter. I mean, it'll help him in the long run anyways, because in competition, people won't refrain from using strength/weight to their advantage.
      #16
  7. kismasher is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 9:53am

    supporting member
     Style: fitness

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hey Clint,

    kudos to you for making the correct decision to NOT injure someone in class. it's called "training" for a reason. and i always tapped to leg locks if i felt someone had good position and control, call me a ***** if you want to.

    similar experience,

    i had a guy in judo that kept claiming i was pinching his triceps when i was gripping. he had some big ass arms and was a lot stronger than me, but i assure you i was not pinching.
    i really didn't know what to say, i know i have a pretty strong grip (with all the masturbation, its not surprising) but it's frickin' judo. so i asked a few other guys and all i got was raised eyebrows. but, i went all collar and elbow on the guy from there on out.

    "stop fucking pinching me" lol.
      #17
  8. kismasher is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 9:55am

    supporting member
     Style: fitness

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    oh yeah,

    and if there was any douchebaggery such as over cranking subs, or retard spazz moves, there was always a black belt that would come over and roll/ randori with the guy to straighten them out.
      #18
  9. gzk is offline

    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 9:59am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sounds like you train with some real cockbags. I'm curious as to why your instructor seems oblivious to this many attitude problems that are that bad. How big is the class, is he getting a decent chance to observe everyone? Either way, you need to tell him about all this stuff before something drastic happens. Your actions are all fine, don't worry about that.

    I think this makes a good case for not allowing noobs to roll until they can demonstrate both comptence in being a training partner and that they aren't the sort of cockbags that you lie awake at night wondering if they're going to snap a joint next class.
      #19
  10. bigguybjj is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 10:31am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ClintEQ
    It's funny, I had basically the exact opposite experience today.

    But not before telling me that he didn't like the way I was using my hands when trying to get underhooks, and I needed to point my fingers differently to really get them well.

    I feel bad for letting ego come into my training, as I work really hard not to do that, but I guess this just really rubbed me the wrong way. Am I being the dick in this situation?
    It's funny, if I can't pull off a move with any amount of skill while rolling, I dare not tell anybody else how to do it. If you're tapping this guy all the time, he doesn't need to be giving advice. As for the problem, there's probably one of those in every school. They think they're better than they really are even when it's evident they aren't that skilled. Either some of the other students and the instructor will straighten him out, or he'll just quit. Either way, have a little patience, and give it some time. You don't have to roll with him, or even respond to his irritating advice. Time will very much take care of him in a good school. And oh yeah, he's dumb as a stack of bricks.

    Edit -- clarifying my post
    Last edited by bigguybjj; 7/27/2007 10:34am at .
      #20
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