View Poll Results: Should I crank these submissions?
- 119. You may not vote on this poll
Yes, you are a *****. Tap or snap.
No, you are being reasonable. Safety first.
7/26/2007 7:29pm, #1
Breaking limbs in BJJ and the consequences
A week ago, a guy came in to our no gi class to watch. He said he'd had no experience whatsoever, including wrestling, and the purple belt running the class suggested that he come back the next day for the beginner class, but he really wanted to try it out, so he signed a waiver and started drilling techniques with us.
As soon as I got matched up with him practicing a kimura set up from side control, I had a bad feeling. I was going through things slowly, trying to break down the technique, but he immediately was trying to do it at full speed. I told him to calm down and go slowly to avoid injury/practice the technique more effectively, which I assumed he would be receptive too, because he was missing the kimura 4/5 times.
It seemed to sink in for a minute or two, but once we had moved on to other partners, I saw that he was up to the same old shenanigans. Because of this, I had a bad feeling when I got matched up with him to roll from the knees. We high fived, and immediately he stood up to both feet and tackled me. He was probably about 240 lbs, and I'm about 220, but feeling his control on top, he was either some sort of freak prodigy, or was full of **** about having no experience. Despite this, as he tried to headlock me, he said "This stuff is harder than it looks on TV", and I was caught between laughter and having a bad feeling.
I armbarred him from the guard, and he tried to stand up Tim Sylvia style, even as I could see his elbow being stretched to the limit and damn close to beyond. I REALLY did not want to be the guy that injured the noob, so I let go of the armbar and rolled backwards into the turtle position. He tried to tackle me from behind, so I put him in a kimura, figuring this was a BJJ move that he had been shown how to escape.
I did not even move to crank it or restablish a guard, but he spazzed out and tried to rip his arm away. By pulling out the way he did, he managed to arm bar himself. The sound that came out of his elbow was something akin to carrots cracking or fabric tearing. I felt his arm give, and immediately let go, feeling sick.
I expected him to be writhing around in pain, but instead he just cradled his elbow, and while he looked shocked, insisted he was ok. I tried to get him to ice his arm, but he wouldn't, and when I told my instructor that he needed to get it iced, he turned to him and said "I don't know what this kid is talking about! I'm fine!".
We never saw him again, but I still felt guilty/freaked out about what I did to his arm, and it clearly has influenced me on the mats now.
There is another supposed noob here who everyone knows is basically sand bagging at his own school. He showed up claiming no experience about three weeks ago, but he routinely goes for advanced half guard sweeps and leg locks that have not been taught. Hell, some of the sweeps I don't even know myself. He taps guys who have been training for six months, so I am suspicious.
Then again, I don't really care. He can claim whatever experience level he wants, and it doesn't really effect me. I'm not there to inflate my ego, just to improve my BJJ. The only concern is that if he is showing ego in that respect, he may have similar problems on the mat.
Yesterday, we got matched up to roll. He's shredded at about 140-150 lbs. Once again, I'm 220, and built reasonably close to what you can see in my avatar. I pass his guard to side control, take mount, look for a head and arm choke and catch an americana from it. I start to crank it slowly from side control, but he makes no move to tap. I'm so much bigger than this guy that I can crank it basically as far as I want, but as I keep moving it further back, I can feel insane tension on his elbow. The tendons in his arm are bulging, and it is bent at a truly digusting angle, and he still isn't tapping despite the fact he clearly can't get out. The sound of the noob's elbow tearing comes into my head, and I just can't make myself crank the americana any further, so I let it go and finish him with a choke.
Round two, I pull guard to try to negate the size desparity. I catch him in a straight armbar, and he too tries to Tim Sylvia his way out of it, standing up and basically putting all of my weight on his arm as he tries to shake me off. Once again, his arm is extended past 180 degrees, and I know if I extend my hips he will have to tap, but I just can't make myself risk breaking it, so I let go and sweep him instead.
Am I being a wuss or am I being prudent? Do you all have any suggestions for how to go forward, from sucking it up and rolling hard, to going and talking to guys who don't seem to want to tap? I'm just a white belt, and one of the youngest guys at my gym, so it is hard for me to go up to guys twice my age and tell them how they need to act on the mats.
7/26/2007 7:43pm, #2
i'm a kyokushin guy, so forgive me if my opinion is way off:
i think you did the right thing by letting them go.
some might say the idiots had it coming, but still, its only training, and as you said, each time you've established a dominant position and can carry it through, i would think there was no need for serious damage.
if put in your place, i'd talk to the instructor, tell them there's a guy who's either too stupid or too macho for his own good, usually the instructor knows how to get some sense into him without much permanent damage :)
7/26/2007 8:10pm, #3
You did the right thing by letting go.
I know it's hard to tell people how to conform to mat etiquette in your position, as it wasn't all that long ago I was in your exact same position of being one of the youngest and least experienced guys in my gym. Rank helps, but not necessarily with the ego problems that you seem to be facing in other people who probably should know better.
In these situations, I tend to prefer chokes, as they don't cause permanent damage, and I could care less now if the other guy goes to sleep, although I have stopped the choke in one past instance before I was able to ascertain what a moron my single-session training partner was - about two to three seconds before he went out. Nobody looks like a hero coughing and spluttering all over the mat, nor do they look "fine" convulsing on the mats while coming to.
7/26/2007 8:19pm, #4
Originally Posted by ClintEQ
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Anything that works
Originally Posted by ClintEQ
Your temper and mat etiquette rock, please train hard, open a school, and train more people with some fucking sense.
7/26/2007 8:30pm, #5
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
I've rolled with people like that. In fact, I've nearly been hurt by people who tried cranking on submissions at 90 miles an hour. They'll hurt you before you can even tap. Then they congratulate themselves on their great victory. Two weeks ago somebody who KNEW better slapped on an rnc and tried to lift me up off the ground with it. He did it all so fast I couldn't even tap before I both felt and heard the cartilage in my neck crack. Then he grinned and said "That's one!" If I was less kind I might have unloaded on him right there. Needless to say, if the guy's a toad, it's not worth getting hurt over. Don't roll with him. As to finishing submissions, I'd say you did the right thing. Sooner or later, someone will hurt him though.
7/26/2007 8:43pm, #6
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
- bjj, boxing, ex-iwama ryu
it sucks that there are people out there like this
7/26/2007 9:18pm, #7
Adding to the chorus here, but you definitely did the right thing. Even if these type of morons are too stupid or too full of ego to tap, there's little sense in depriving a guy of the use of one of his limbs for months during a regular sparring session.
Tell your instructor about the sandbagger ASAP. Let him deal with the idiots. It's his gym. That's part of his job.
When I come across someone too stupid to tap, like NSLightsOut, I repeatedly use chokes to get my point across. If they don't get the message, then I simply refuse to roll with them. If they ask why I tell them it's because their ego is too big for me to grab onto.
I must be tired, I just dangled my preposition, and I don't care enough to fix it.
7/26/2007 10:33pm, #8
Originally Posted by anarki13
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- I request to be banned
Injuring someone is never good, even if they are stupid. It is bad for you and your gym.
7/26/2007 10:50pm, #9
- Join Date
- Sep 2004
- Krav / (Kick)Boxing / BJJ
This actually came up before class today. As the instructor put it, there are two ways you can be a douche in this regard:
1. Tapping WAY too early, before the submission is even applied. It prevents the submitted from practicing to escape and keeps the submitter from knowing how to properly apply and maintain a submission.
2. Tapping too late. As the instructor put it, unless the submitter is being a dick and ripping out submissions without care for the partner, the submitter is a douche and now the submitted can't train. If the submitter is being nice, but the submitted is refusing to tap, the submitted is being a douche because he's deliberately forcing a lose-lose situation for both partners. Either the submitted gets **** broken and can't train, or the submitter has to let go of a legit submission because of the submitted's doucheness. Or the submitter applies the submission as warranted and injury occurs.
Personal opinion - avoid injury, report the douchiness to the instructor so they know that there's a harmful element in their class.
7/26/2007 11:21pm, #10
it's good to try and escape submissions, because that keeps everyone's jiujitsu realistic and effective, but if your escape attempt amounts to thrashing like an animal because you're too proud to tap.. well, that's a shitty escape attempt and you're an idiot to boot. if it gets your arm broken, like your one opponent, you had it coming.
you did the right thing letting go. they'll get theirs, sooner or later, and you don't need to be the one to break their arm.
personally i like to think the "tap or snap" attitude should be saved for the cage, when things are supposed to be 110%. i can only imagine bad things coming from a daily application of the "tap or snap" principle on the grappling mat.
and.. part of the "ju" in jiujitsu, i think, includes learning the adaptability required to say, finish your one opponent with a choke as you chose to do. if you're faced with:
A. giving up entirely, giving him a false sense of superiority and a false impression of bjj
B. breaking his arm
C. putting him harmlessly to sleep
C is probably the best option for everyone, all things considered, and it's good that your jiujitsu skills gave you that option and that you chose it.