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  1. pittfrog is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 9:32am


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First off, there was no statement in the contract about exclusively purchasing gear, that came later after the contract was signed, when the student manual was issued. Second, the requirement about getting permission to compete or train elsewhere also came up later, and was not specified in the contract. This school does not field competitors in striking or grappling, so I really don't get it.

    "equipment needs to be good quality and reasonably priced"
    Exactly. If it weren't for the crappy Century gloves that cut my hands, I'd gladly give this guy my money for gear.

    BTW, the above situation is at another school at which I train, not the school I link as my home school--if anyone from Pittsburgh is watching this thread.

    Also, for what it's worth, I'm reasonably happy with the training offered at that second school--I'm *not* accusing my second school of being Bullshido.
    Last edited by pittfrog; 7/27/2007 9:39am at .
  2. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 10:21am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not sure what you're rights are regarding the contract then, but I'd sit down with them and have a reasonable discussion with them letting them know you never intended to solely attend there school - it's a secondary facility for you. If they are reasonable people they will either let you keep training without restriction until the end of the contract or let you out of the contract amicably.

    If they are unreasonable people - well, I'm not a lawyer and even if I were I don't know what you signed anyway - but its probably easiest and cheapest to just pay out the rest of the contract cycle if you are near the end of it then extract yourself from it. Which sucks - but paying thousands in legal fees to get out of a few months of paying a school is expensive justice. But with any luck, they'll be reasonable.
  3. pittfrog is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 10:46am


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My contract is up at the end of August, so it's probably not worth a big confrontation, legal or otherwise. Thanks.
  4. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 11:04am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, if its up that soon, I'd let it go too without saying anything. No sense in making a big thing about it when either way, you walk at the end of the month. Good luck at you're main school.
  5. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Misguided style basher

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 6:45pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Jhemsley, i don't know if you realise this but there is a world outside competitive BJJ you know. BJJ is pretty much a minority martial art. ok, joking aside, I think that other thread does seem a bit insular BJJ.

    As it happens I don't agree with you on exclusivity or gear, or contracts etc, but please bear with me.

    I think the wider problem here, often called McDojoism, is martial arts clubs suckering people with contracts and/or hidden charges like dubious kit requirements, exclusivity etc.

    Exclusivity is also common among the cult-like MA community where loyalty is often used to manipulate peoples' better judgement.

    I don't think normal people walking into a martial arts dojo have a clue about these pitfalls and I don't think they have the savvy, inclination or are given the chance to really find it out before committing to the club - straight into a free class then sign them up straight away after before the student has put it all into perspective sound familiar?

    Remember, Ashida Kim's excuse was "Caveat emptor" after selling a black belt grade in "Vale Tudo" to an undercover forum member.


    I've trained at a few clubs that required buying kit through them, and had trail lessons at many more. NEVER was the kit as cheap or fit for purpose as can be got regular retail. And never was it discussed up front during the sales pitch session.
    Last edited by Fantasy Warrior; 7/27/2007 6:52pm at .
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
  6. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2007 6:34am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kickcatcher
    Jhemsley, i don't know if you realise this but there is a world outside competitive BJJ you know. BJJ is pretty much a minority martial art. ok, joking aside, I think that other thread does seem a bit insular BJJ.
    Sure I know there is world outside of that, and that BJJ is a minority martial art.

    The other thread is fairly specific, I agree. But the liability and reputation concerns that might prompt a school to have such an agreement aren't restricted to the world of competive BJJ, even if the competition motivation isn't. Rather than repeat them here, it made more sense to link to the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kickcatcher
    As it happens I don't agree with you on exclusivity or gear, or contracts etc, but please bear with me. I think the wider problem here, often called McDojoism, is martial arts clubs suckering people with contracts and/or hidden charges like dubious kit requirements, exclusivity etc.
    I understand the concept. I've noted in both threads the school should be upfront about policies. They should be at minimum posted on the wall somewhere with other rules (just like any place of work or local fitness gym does) and put in plain English in any contract that anyone is going to sign, and the school should go over any such rule to start.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kickcatcher
    Exclusivity is also common among the cult-like MA community where loyalty is often used to manipulate peoples' better judgement.
    Certainly the policy can be implemented for malicious reasons. My objection is that there are legitimate reasons for such a policy, but in the other thread it was treated as a clear indication that the school provided inferior instruction, even after someone who knew of the school said they didn't, and that the policy probably only applied to grappling.

    Simiraly, in this thread the OP attending the school said he had no problem with what they were teaching. Although the overpriced product poor quality issue and bringing up the exclusivity agreement after only after joining is a probelm.

    The fact that some use the policy for the wrong reasons isn't proof that any school that uses one is a cult, or is out to get anyone, or is selling a bad product, or sucks and doesn't know what they are doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kickcatcher
    don't think normal people walking into a martial arts dojo have a clue about these pitfalls and I don't think they have the savvy, inclination or are given the chance to really find it out before committing to the club - straight into a free class then sign them up straight away after before the student has put it all into perspective sound familiar?
    Does a school have to fail to adopt protective policies to fairly cater to people who refuse to do a little research into product that carries inherent risks? Yes, there are many frauds and theives in the business who should be exposed and criticized, but blanket statements that exclusivity means a school automatically sucks don't serve that end in an accurate manner.

    No question someone should look into why a school has it and ask about it before signing up. But the same should be said for any rules. It is a buyer beware market, but painting every school that does andything in their own interest as the return of Ashida Kim is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    `
    Quote Originally Posted by Kickcatcher
    I've trained at a few clubs that required buying kit through them, and had trail lessons at many more. NEVER was the kit as cheap or fit for purpose as can be got regular retail. And never was it discussed up front during the sales pitch session.
    Don't confuse my viewpoint on the subject, or martial art schools in general, as being most schools being run by John Q. Goodguy. I did a lot of research into area schools before picking one. The majority were just as you describe - shady at best, fraudulent at worst. But there are conditions that a school can fairly require and sell standardized items which warrented mentioning, so I did.

    Some random emoticons to please my toddler.:qleft2: :love3: :new_cussi :happy7: :5oh: :evil4: :dd: :angry2: :qleft2:
    Last edited by Jhemsley; 7/30/2007 6:35am at . Reason: Fixed quotation marker
  7. Sith_Lord is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2007 10:25am


     Style: Not lost...Found Judo+MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You shouldn't need permission to cross-train (you're a grown adult), this isn't 14th century Japan where we have to be dedicated to one master, so train where you want and leave the cult behind.

    Buying equipment just from one club is just guilt-trip and brainwash tactics used by the owners, buy from where you want and if they are reasonable people they shouldn't catch feelings about the situation.
  8. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2007 10:26am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are paying THEM for a service. Tell them to **** off, you'll buy your gear where you want to and train with who you want to.
  9. mya is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2007 2:18pm


     Style: GoJu-Ryu (karate) BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why do you guys even sign contracts.
    Where i live (Europe) no one signs contract. We pay by the month and that is it.

    And you need to ask to cross train ?
    And wear only eq from them ?

    What a joke. That is even iligal where i live.
    For example Ford cannot force Ford owners to only use Ford replacement parts in their cars, they have the right to chose what to use.
    Its about free comertial competition.
  10. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Misguided style basher

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2007 6:39pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mya
    Why do you guys even sign contracts.
    Where i live (Europe) no one signs contract. We pay by the month and that is it.

    And you need to ask to cross train ?
    And wear only eq from them ?

    What a joke. That is even iligal where i live.
    For example Ford cannot force Ford owners to only use Ford replacement parts in their cars, they have the right to chose what to use.
    Its about free comertial competition.
    Being a European living in US I can say that consumer protection is a million times better in Europe.

    I wouldn't say that no-one signs contracts in Europe but it is certainly rarer even among McDojos, Bullshido teachers and plain crap schools. Exploitative equipment exclusivity is pretty rampant though. And even many schools that don't force you to buy from them still hard-sell their own kit which has the same result.

    [toungeincheek]
    Jhemsley, I not expecting to cure you of your capitalist pig views, but blaming the consumer for being duped by the McDojo owner is rather unprincipled. If it's the consumers' fault why are you here?[/toungeincheek]
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
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