Yes, I am smarter than you are.
Posted On:7/26/2007 10:20am
Style: TKD, BJJ
Before I get flamed I intend to ask this at class monday as well, but I didn't have a chance yesterday because it came up at the very end of class and I had to leave.
Twice while rolling yesterday I either was in an arm triangle or had someone else in one and neither of us could finish it. I had an arm triangle from mount on a guy and was squeezing for all I was worth, even tried rolling to the side to try to get a tighter grip and I couldn't get it to work, I eventually just gave it up and did something else.
Guy caught me in an arm triangle from half guard and then used that to get to side control with the armtriangle, it never felt like I was in any danger of blacking out, or even close, and I could tell he was trying to finish it pretty hard.
What kind of tips for finishing the arm triangle can some folks offer? is side control more effective than mount for it? Vice versa? Anything like that would be appreciated. I figure this is probably something a lot of N00Bs would like to get tips on.
Posted On:7/26/2007 6:31pm
Look up the first Aurelio vs. Gomi fight.
Gnarly King of Half-Guard
Posted On:7/26/2007 6:58pm
Yeah, you've pretty much always got to step off mount to the side of the trapped arm.
Personally, I use a palm to palm grip, rather than grabbing my ear. Make sure you're keeping your forehead as close to the floor as you can. If it's his left arm you've trapped, use your right hand to pull on your left, think of it as tightening a loop of string, until it's as tight as possible. If you're mounted, now is the time to step off him. Switch your hips and walk towards his head a little to get any extra slack out, then flatten your body, tighten your arms and sink your weight towards the floor.
Posted On:7/26/2007 7:01pm
Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Just post a description of what you teacher tells you here when you have a chance, and my blood lust will be deferred.
How I personally prefer to arm triangle (plus tips on finishing):
1.) For me at least, regardless of where I start the choke, I finish it in side control. This makes for one of very few instances where I will actually migrate from mount to side control, thus giving up a slightly more advantageous position for a submission. When you do this, drive your knee to the mat first, then do sort of a reverse curl motion with your leg to get it safely to the ground without being pulled into half guard. To keep from being pulled into half guard, make sure at all times your head is blocking the arm, and that you're not perfectly parallel to your opponent. Different angles are better for different people, and also can vary depending on who you're choking. To finish, I always use the same type of grip that you'd find in your average RNC or triangle choke. That is, one limb (in this case, the blade of my hand) in the crook of my elbow, and the other bend in a figure four.
2.) When I am in position to actually start sinking the choke, I do a number of things:
A.) I pull toward my feet with my arms. For my build, I've found that this motion sets my arms as low as they will go on my opponent's neck, and makes sure the choke does not become a neck crank. This may vary per your build.
B.) Now that my arms are low, I continue with this pulling motion, and exert some pressure of the type you would use if you were trying to turn to face away from your opponent. In reality, you do not actually try to face away from your opponent, but it seems to cinch my chokes a little tighter when I do this.
C.) IF I can manage it, I use the hand on the arm that isn't wrapped around my opponent's neck to slightly push their head to the side. Not down, but to the side. Just a little. Again, this is just something I've picked up that tightens the choke a little, and isn't necessarily a "must" to get a proper blood choke. I also push his trapped arm in the same direction with my head.
D.) As I'm doing all this, I lay as flat as I possibly can while still on my toes. Basically, the same kind of pressure you'd exert to have a really tight side control on your opponent. Now here comes the part that might be a little odd, depending on who taught you the choke: I actually sink my weight back toward my legs while still exerting the pressure I was using to keep my arms tight at the base of my neck.
In summation, I exert roughly five pressures at once. I pull my arms toward my legs to keep my arms low on his neck, I push his head slightly sideways with my loose hand if I can, push his trapped arm sideways with my head, I turn SLIGHTLY away from him if I can, and I sink my weight back toward my legs as if I'm trying to lower my body to the ground (obviously my opponent's neck and arm are between me and the ground, so this will never happen). While doing all this, I'm offset from his body by a varying angle .
I'm tempted to say that this technique has a lot of intricacies that are often missed, but the truth is, you can say that about just about any technique. So I'll spare you that speech, and just end with this: Aesopian recently mentioned in one of his blog posts that he decided to start treating the brabo choke like he does the triangle instead of something you just slap on. There are various sub-positions within a given position, and trigger points that we often become aware of after we attain a certain level of mastery over a given technique. We realize what options we have when a given opponent tries to counter a certain way, and what recounters we have. We realize the feel a technique has when it is being executed properly, and can tell when it is not working correctly. Try to apply this type of analytical thinking to every last bit of your game when you can, and you'll find yourself improving much faster.
Last edited by Cassius; 7/26/2007 7:38pm at .
"No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
Posted On:7/27/2007 9:10am
Yeah, that's some awesome advice. A far cry from "grab him and squeeze" which has been pretty much what I've been doing. I'll have a chance Monday to ask my instructor the same question and I'll post up his response here. Wow though, that's an awesome response, much more than I expected. I have a lot of work to do on that choke.
Posted On:8/03/2007 6:10am
Ok, I finally got the chance to ask about finishing arm triangles in class today. Response was as follows:
If you set the Arm triangle up in mount once you have it secure you step off to the side of the trapped arm and walk towards the head. Keep your chest pressing against their arm and driving forward into it and continue to walk towards their head. If they still aren't tapping you can switch to Bully side control and pull their head up.
I tried it and I found that pretty much every time I end up having to pull their head up to get the finish.
Woke up in the mortuary
Posted On:8/03/2007 11:52am
Style: Judo, Sub wrestling
Pay attention to your grip the entire time and you will be less likely to need to pull the head up. That said, in leg triangles to finish you often pull down on the head - an arm triangle is mechanically nearly identical. But if you lock in the leg triangle beautifully, you won't need to pull down the head - just an instant tap. Thus, pay attention to the grip the entire time just like you would in a leg triangle.
(props to aesopian)
Posted On:8/03/2007 11:56am
Can you be more specific? What about my grip should I be paying attention to? It's as tight as I can make it...
Posted On:8/05/2007 8:53am
"Tight" sometimes just means you're wasting your own energy being a vise on a suboptimal part of their neck. Yesterday I held out in a guillotine for about 20 long, long seconds - because I knew he wasn't on the sweet spot and he would get tired before I did from squeezing like a spaz as soon as something resembling the choke presents itself. If you are not *sure* where the carotid is on the neck, go find out. I'm not sure how to express the details of tightening up the choke by adjusting the grip but remember that the goal is to maximize pressure on the carotid.
Posted On:8/06/2007 6:08am
Yeah. I don't need to "tighten" my grip. I need to adjust the angle that my forearm is at. Which is what walking towards the head is doing for me.
Articles and Reviews
Tools and Info