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  1. BFGalbraith is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 3:08am


     Style: Tai Chi,BJJ,knife-dueling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Getting belt rank by way of "testing" instead of by way of competive performance is generally frowned upon here on Bullshido.net. An example of getting rank by way of testing is a kid in Karate class being required to do two Kata and break a board to get his yellow belt test. An example of getting a belt rank based on competitive performance is a kid in a BJJ clas doing so well in white belt competition that his teacher decides he's ready for the next belt level.

    Belt rank is a Japanese martial arts thing for the most part. I know of 4 full contact competition styles that are Japanese: A)Judo, B) Knock-Down Karate (Kyokushin & Enshin etc.), C) Sport Jujitsu (a sort of cross between A&B) and D) BJJ (mostly ground fighting.)
    That makes a maximum of 4 competitions that would be considered an effective way to guage belt rank IMHO.

    Of those 4 competitions, which do these 9-arts-of-the-Bujinkan use as quality control for their belt ranks?
  2. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 3:24am

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It gets very confusing trying to hash out all the connections in the 9 arts... you set yourself up for a drubbing from self righteous Buj practicioners and of course the Bullshido orthodoxy which does not acknowledge the legitimacy of the Bujinkan. Things also change. I have found that what was originally attributed to one of the Ryuha suddenly is attribited to another. But there are a couple of fairly important points you may want to be aware of.

    Shinden has Jutai stuff of course (as you mention) but in addition to the natural poses it also is known not so much by the Koshi, ( Ihave personally never heard of Shinden Koshi stuff) as the Daiken Jutsu. Shinden Diaken Jutsu is one of the fundamental striking methods in the Bujinkan. It starts out with the very strange looking beginner's punch and some of the bowling ball like strikes (though this also comes from Gyokko Ryu). Daiken Jutsu is similar in some respects to Koppo Jutsu, though it looks very different from the short strikes of Koto Ryu. Even the Fu kan ken strike that is used in the Togakeri Ryu (with the iron claws) has a diaken parallel in Shin den Fu Ryu. I don't know of any Koshi in the Bujinkan that is not derived from Gyoko Ryu or from Togakeri (which some people think comes from Gyoko Ryu-- different angles utilized different set up for Ninjutsu puroposes).

    Also. Koto Ryu Koppojutsu is not just about breaking bones, It is about the angle of attacking the bones, unbalancing the other persons skeletal structure (or bones) and on a strategic level of breaking the person psychologically by making these attacks repeatedly. This is one of the things that distinguishes Koto Ryu Koppo stuff from other koppo stuff and from Diaken stuff (which uses another fighting distance and different strategies).

    I think there may be some Diaken stuff that is also derived from the Kukishin stuff also, though I am not sure. Gikken koppo stuff is so out there that it is for all practical purposes not comprable to Koto Ryu---only because it is not taught. The Giken stuff I have seen involves long drawn out postures (it was originally a haliberd art) and locking the other guy's skeletal structure up... I have never seen Giken stuff that is circular.

    Gyokushin to a large extent is a theoretical art devoted to strategy... unless they are changing that these days--- always a possability in the Bujinkan. Your point about overlap is correct and also in many of the older arts, because they were practiced by professional fighting men, rank was given and recieved more liberally than in modern times. There are even legitimate instances of two warriors exchanging rank after a day of training and sharing each others arts. For example in Kukishin and Takagi the two guys fought with Bos and empty handed, decided one art was great for each purpose and merged the arts for a while. After a bout a week of playing off techniques both guys were acknowledged in records and obviously by each other as gaining Menkyo status in BOTH arts.

    Good post I figured the least I could do is take a share of the drubbing we may now recieve on this thread. haha
  3. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 3:26am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know if you are aware of this Black6, but the historicity of many of the bujinkan's ryu is in serious doubt, in particular the "ninjitsu" ryu, which pretty much all koryu scholars consider retarded.
  4. kismasher is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 8:10am

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     Style: fitness

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Black 6
    The main reason I'm not a huge fan of the Hayes stuff is that he has worked kind of hard to make the art more marketable by toning down the display of it. When I've seen him do techniques, there is a lack of delivering pain. It's odd seeing this (which I actually saw in 1998), and contrasting it with my first instructors training stories from the early 80's. One of which was the fact that they didn't have pads to kick when they were practicing kicking techniques. So, for the stomp kick, one person would stand there with their hands behind their back, and the other would deliver the kick. Then they went back and forth for a bit.

    As far as I know, Ron Duncan is really more aikijujitsu.

    I was looking at the .org part, and there's really not enough polished information to talk about an "art". I could create an entry for the Bujinkan, but this would still need some polishing to be good. Basically, I typed this on my lunch break.

    Ooops. Sorry, you are correct regarding Ronald Duncan. My bad. I still think Hatsumi and Sachronoski(sp) should be BFF.
  5. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 8:36am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Honestly, You discription of the ryu-ha fells more like you read a book instead of actually STUDYING THE RYU-HA.

    In addition Hatsumi doesn't teach Gikan-ryu, Gyokushin-ryu nor Kumogakure-ryu
  6. Lujke is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 3:07pm


     Style: Systema & BJJ noob,x BBT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BFGalbraith
    Of those 4 competitions, which do these 9-arts-of-the-Bujinkan use as quality control for their belt ranks?
    That one's easily answered, as I'm sure you know. There is no real quality control for belt ranks within the Bujinkan. Grades are awarded pretty much at whim, both by Dr Hatsumi and by his instructors.

    My understanding was always that since Dr Hatsumi imported the idea of belt ranks into the arts he was teaching, he felt pretty free to award them as he chose. There was massive 'grade inflation' compared to pretty much any other art, especially among the higher dan grades, which was why he eventually started awarding grades above 10th dan, in order to retain some sense of seniority among his longstanding students.

    I was told that grades were treated in a fairly offhand manner in order to prevent people being able to take themselves or their grade too seriously. If that was the intention, I'm afraid to say that my experience was that the strategy was by no means universally successful. That said, most of the people I enjoyed training with had enough sense to take the grades with a pinch of salt.

    I was always embarassed whenever a non-booj MA asked about my grade. My approach was to admit to the grade, explain it didn't really relate to the grading systems used elsewhere, and then tell them how long I'd trained and what my experience was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    In addition Hatsumi doesn't teach Gikan-ryu, Gyokushin-ryu nor Kumogakure-ryu
    I'm sure that's correct as far as teaching the complete ryu-ha goes. However, I do recall being taught some techniques that were described has having come from Kumogakure Ryu, as taught by Hatsumi at a taikai. I'll confess that my memory is not perfect though, so I could be in error about the name. Plus, I only saw these techniques secondhand via another instructor.
  7. rw4th is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 8:17pm


     Style: BJJ,MT,RBSD (on hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We were just about due for another Bujinkan history/kick a dead horse thread, although I think we haved moved beyond just kicking and squarely into the realm of raping a dead animal carcass.
    Last edited by rw4th; 7/27/2007 8:19pm at .
  8. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 10:58pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    Honestly, You discription of the ryu-ha fells more like you read a book instead of actually STUDYING THE RYU-HA.
    What a surprise...

    In addition Hatsumi doesn't teach Gikan-ryu, Gyokushin-ryu nor Kumogakure-ryu
    Bits and pieces will slip out, but they've never been taught systematically. Even Hatsumi's early students from the time when he was more formal in teaching Ryuha never claim to have learned much of them from him.

    There's so much gibberjabber in the initial post that I doubt anything useful will come out of this. Ultimately it may prove more worth your time to consider the idea of "Nine Ryuha" as being symbolic for the overall body of knowlege that Takamatsu passed to Hatsumi. If you do not understand the symbolism see if you can find some information on number symbolism and Japanese culture.
  9. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 11:51pm

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lujke
    That one's easily answered, as I'm sure you know. There is no real quality control for belt ranks within the Bujinkan. Grades are awarded pretty much at whim, both by Dr Hatsumi and by his instructors.

    My understanding was always that since Dr Hatsumi imported the idea of belt ranks into the arts he was teaching, he felt pretty free to award them as he chose. There was massive 'grade inflation' compared to pretty much any other art, especially among the higher dan grades, which was why he eventually started awarding grades above 10th dan, in order to retain some sense of seniority among his longstanding students.

    I was told that grades were treated in a fairly offhand manner in order to prevent people being able to take themselves or their grade too seriously. If that was the intention, I'm afraid to say that my experience was that the strategy was by no means universally successful. That said, most of the people I enjoyed training with had enough sense to take the grades with a pinch of salt.

    I was always embarassed whenever a non-booj MA asked about my grade. My approach was to admit to the grade, explain it didn't really relate to the grading systems used elsewhere, and then tell them how long I'd trained and what my experience was.



    I'm sure that's correct as far as teaching the complete ryu-ha goes. However, I do recall being taught some techniques that were described has having come from Kumogakure Ryu, as taught by Hatsumi at a taikai. I'll confess that my memory is not perfect though, so I could be in error about the name. Plus, I only saw these techniques secondhand via another instructor.
    dsimon writes:

    Your apporach to the rank inflation issue is exemplory. Telling people how long you trained is what is really important IMO.

    One consistant irony I have found is that the longer one hangs around the buj the more one starts to understan the very limited role the auxillory (my words haha) Ryu play in the art.
  10. Black 6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2007 7:59am


     Style: Taijutsu, Army Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    Honestly, You discription of the ryu-ha fells more like you read a book instead of actually STUDYING THE RYU-HA.

    In addition Hatsumi doesn't teach Gikan-ryu, Gyokushin-ryu nor Kumogakure-ryu
    Quote Originally Posted by Black 6
    My thought on this actually came while I was doing some reading on the Bujinkan, and it's partially relevent to this:
    Yeah, I already stated that.
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