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  1. Black 6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 7:38am


     Style: Taijutsu, Army Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Some background on the arts of the Bujinkan

    This originally started as a post on having belts in multiple arts. However, it became so Bujinkan heavy with my example, that I decided to place it as its own topic. I will create another post with my original thought, which was on the idea of having black belts in multiple arts over a short period of time. If you really don't care to discuss the Bujinkan, you can go to this post, instead. I left this intact since I think it can serve as a resource for other discussion on Bullshido.net. A large piece of this info comes from the book "An Introductory History to the Schools of the Bujinkan". It's a pretty well put together book, from an information standpoint, however, I believe it is overpriced for what it is. Also, it is technicallt twice as thick as it needs to be, since all pages are printed single sided. However, if you like to take notes, this can be useful.

    My thought on this actually came while I was doing some reading on the Bujinkan, and it's partially relevent to this:

    Soke Hatsumi is the grandmaster for 9 arts. And people usually howl about this, given his training consisted of weekend training with Takamatsu for 15 years (overlooking any practice that he did on his own). Now, prior to this training, he had studied Kendo, Karate, Aikido, Okinowan Karate, and held his 4th Dan in Judo. From this we can assume that he had good control of his body (due to his training) and was generally athletic.

    Flash forward 15 years, and he is the master of 9 arts. However, if we look deeply into this we see something interesting. First let's look at the ninjutsu arts. Two of the arts Togakure and Komogakure, have very similar taijutsu (unarmed combat). Also, since the 1600s they were under the same family (Soke lineage). The only larde differences in them is that Togakure ryu had 18 Bujutsu (one of which was the taijutsu), most of which could be learned through traditional means. The other 17 were geography, disguises, meteorology, hiding (I guess this would be camoflague techniques), espionage, infiltration, strategy, gunpowder (firearm skills as far as I know), swimming, horsemanship, halberd, spear, sickle and chain, shuriken techniques, staff fighting, and swordmanship. (This list will be referenced later).

    For Togakure ryu, there were three big things that made it different from the others: four-pointed shuriken, the shuko (hand clawsm and the bamboo breathing pole. Komogajure, had use of hook spears, a tree climbing tool, the use of headbutts and use of the head while fighting, use of armored sleeves while fighting, survival skills such as lighting fires in damp weather, and the use of double bloks and strikes.

    The other ninjutsu, Gyokushin ryu specializes in koppojutsu, jutaijutsu, and kenjutsu. It also utelized sutemi throws, which are the throws that lit a persdon high and then drop them. An example of this that I can recall is a technique hat translated into "waterfall drop". Imagine "Morote Seoinage". Now imagine that when you took them over, you stayed more upright and moved their shoulder away from your body, countering the tucking action and the rotation of the legs that would allow for good ukemi that places them on their back. Essentially, they are now somewhat piked, and being driven head first toward the ground.


    --Koppojutsu--
    There are two Koppojutsu Ryu in the Bujinkan: Koto Ryu and Gikan Ryu. Koppojutsu is simply attacking and breakling bones. Here's a quick list of Koto vs Gikan, respectively:
    -Short distace between opponents vs. larrger distance
    -techniques are quick vs. techniques are more complicated
    -Striking vs. loks and throws
    -straight vs. circular

    Koto ryu also has "techniques" of not telegraphine your techniques. I'm not versed on these techniques, but I'm pretty sure that most of us here are up on this idea, at least in theory, even if you are not good in practice.

    The last four arts are Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu (Muscle attacks), Kukishinden Ryu Happo Hikenjutsu, Shindenfudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu (which also includes jutaijutsu), and Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu. (This is getting long, so forgive me if I gloss over this really quickly to reach the end.)

    +Gyokko Ryu - Muscle attacks and knocking opponents off balance when striking and blocking, use of thumbs and fingers (boshiken)

    +Shindenfudo - Kosshijutsu based (see Gyokko ryu), natural posture (the method in which you normally stand) in the dakentaijutsu, 5 postures for the jutaijutsu

    +Kukishinden - Branched off from Kikishin. Use of spear and bo. Fighting on ships (postures are lower for better balance). Some weaponry that seems unconventional and not modern, but att the time were tools that were used in everyday sea work. 9 technique areas => strategy, short staff, long staff, naginata, short sword, blade throwing, spear fighting, and horsemanship. These 9 are different from the original 9. There is also some debate as to how Takamatsu came into possession of this art, and who it was originally passed on to.

    +Takagi - Similar to Judo and Aikido, except there is focus on making breakfalling and escapes more difficult/impoossible. Emphasizes use of speed, and keeping the opponent close to you on throws, for defense indoors and in enclosed areas. This art was passed on to 4 people by Takamatsu.

    If you paid attention to it all, you'll see that there is a hugh amount of overlap amongst the arts. Menkyo Kaiden in some of them would not require much more than learning additional techniques and theories on top of one of the other arts.
  2. kismasher is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 8:53am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    why god, why?
  3. daGorilla is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 9:29am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kismasher
    why god, why?
    Because God hates you.

    Seriously, though -- nice effort and all, but:

    The gist of all that verbosity is "similarity/crossover=multiple blackbelts."

    Elementary, my dear Watson. It's like saying being a master of flatulence can also be a master of pooping.
  4. Black 6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 10:53am


     Style: Taijutsu, Army Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kismasher
    why god, why?
    "Why", as in "Why did you read it if you didn't care?" or "Why did you post a comment that doesn't add to the discussion, pose a valid question, or point to an inconsistency that could be researched?"

    The point of my post was for those who use the "How can Hatsumi be in charge of 9 arts? How could he have gained understanding for all of them in 15 years (which is the point where Takamatsu died, not the point at which he believed he had a full grasp on the arts, which he says came later)? And how does the Bujinkan profess to teach its students all this stuff?" It seems like that is one of the larger arguments on the board when it comes to talking about the Bujinkan (the other being "alive training").

    Seriously, if you have something to add or debate, that's fine. If you want to troll, there's a place for that.
  5. kismasher is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 11:23am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why is this in MABS? How about sourcing some of that information you are typing. Do you any references?

    What does it mean to be a 'master' of 9 arts? Being Japanese doesn't make anyone special.
  6. Black 6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 11:36am


     Style: Taijutsu, Army Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kismasher
    Why is this in MABS? How about sourcing some of that information you are typing. Do you any references?

    What does it mean to be a 'master' of 9 arts? Being Japanese doesn't make anyone special.
    Okay, this was a much better question.

    I guess the word "master" is a bit of a pain to use, and I may even be wrong (translation/interpretation wise) in using it. He's the head of the arts, he's the head of organization that is the "Bujinkan". I guess i should just use the word "Soke", without attempt at interpretation, since it is the title that he holds. True, being Japanese doesn't make anyone special. However, he is the holder of the scrolls, the current Soke of the arts, and the head of the organization.

    This sits in MBAS, because it's not comedic (YMAS), and the information is more geared toward the "investigations and standards" that that is in the title of this forum. Since this is also the forum in which much of the serious x-kan discussions occur, it would seem a likely place. I suppose that I could have necroed a thread, but that just seems in bad form. If this thread belongs somewhere else, I'm sure that a moderator will correct its placement for me.

    As far as information goes, this isn't original research, but information that I have read that isn't readily available to all. The information is part of things that have been asked in the past, and that I, ad others, have not answered then. In my case it was because I didn't have the answers. I named the book that I got a lot of info from. There are a few others, but I am getting ready to leave Italy, and almost all of my books (as in ALL) are on their way to the states. Some of the stuff is Hatsumi written, which is more used for where he states what ryu a technique or posture comes from.
  7. kismasher is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 11:44am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    perhaps you should put this info. in the .net or .org pages.

    my knowledge of taijutse only extends as far as a few Stephen Hayes and Ronald Duncan videos which i watched at a friends house many years ago. the same friend also has a brown belt in juko kai that he achieved while at LSU. (lousiana state university) i think that's an appropriate mix don't you?
  8. Black 6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 5:34pm


     Style: Taijutsu, Army Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The main reason I'm not a huge fan of the Hayes stuff is that he has worked kind of hard to make the art more marketable by toning down the display of it. When I've seen him do techniques, there is a lack of delivering pain. It's odd seeing this (which I actually saw in 1998), and contrasting it with my first instructors training stories from the early 80's. One of which was the fact that they didn't have pads to kick when they were practicing kicking techniques. So, for the stomp kick, one person would stand there with their hands behind their back, and the other would deliver the kick. Then they went back and forth for a bit.

    As far as I know, Ron Duncan is really more aikijujitsu.

    I was looking at the .org part, and there's really not enough polished information to talk about an "art". I could create an entry for the Bujinkan, but this would still need some polishing to be good. Basically, I typed this on my lunch break.
  9. JMYoung is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 12:55am


     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sutemi waza are the sacrifice throws. Not sure if that's what you meant by your description, but I wanted to clarify.
  10. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 2:27am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Two of the arts Togakure and Komogakure, have very similar taijutsu (unarmed combat).
    They're also similiar in that they're about as imaginary as a fifteen part Invader Zim/NBC's The Office crossover fanfic written by a manic depressive teenage girl in the midwest.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
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