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  1. Black 6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 5:44am


     Style: Taijutsu, Army Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Black belts in multiple arts in a short time

    What originally spawned this post was some research on the Bujinkan, discussed here.

    A lot of the time here on Bullshido, we come across an individual who's resume reads like a Black pelt grocery list:

    6th Dan Shotokan Karate
    4rd Dan Okinowan Karate
    3rd Dan Judo
    Milk
    Eggs
    3rd Dan Japanese Jujitsu

    A lot of times, this is an alarm bell for starting a bullshido investigation. Normally this is coupled with some other fact, like the person has only been in martial arts as a whole for 8 years or so.

    However, what is the feeling on persons who obtain multiple belts in arts that are very similar? For example, if someone studies a particular ryu of Karate, and attains 3rd Dan, wouldn't it be easy for them to transition to another Karate, and even attain rank quickly, due to already having thorough understanding of the basics. Granted, there may be different katas to learn, and a handful of theories particular to the art, but aside from that, there shouldn't be much else. I would assume that this would hold true for combinations of Judo/Jujitsu, Akido/Akijutsu, BJJ/GJJ, etc.
    Last edited by Black 6; 7/26/2007 7:39am at .
  2. lazy guru is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 8:35am


     Style: Kenpo,Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    you show a point but what are you tring to ask that people get ranked in a short period of time. or that they have a rank in one art and go to another but them knowing the basic help them to jump rank. my question is what are you mad about or what anwser do you want
  3. hpr is offline
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    Knock-off Cthulhu

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 8:43am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My guess would be that there are the natural talents / hard workers that actually have a very strict training regime who get multiple black belts in short time. After all, ranks should give out the skill in that art, not the overall time you've spent doing it. Guy who trains 12h a week should get his belts a lot faster than your average Joe t3h d34dly, shouldn't he? Especially if he's doing arts that are very similar. And is talented to begin with.

    But mostly the guys claiming such feats tend to be resume padding unfit fakes.
    Curiosity killed the cat. But damn it had a blast.
  4. kismasher is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 8:50am

    supporting member
     Style: fitness

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i have no problem with rank jumpers if they have appropriate prerequisites.

    if i change employers, i don't expect to start at the bottom again.
  5. Black 6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 10:46am


     Style: Taijutsu, Army Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hpr
    My guess would be that there are the natural talents / hard workers that actually have a very strict training regime who get multiple black belts in short time. After all, ranks should give out the skill in that art, not the overall time you've spent doing it. Guy who trains 12h a week should get his belts a lot faster than your average Joe t3h d34dly, shouldn't he? Especially if he's doing arts that are very similar. And is talented to begin with.

    But mostly the guys claiming such feats tend to be resume padding unfit fakes.

    Actually this is slightly off the mark. As with anything, two people beginning in an art will advance at a different pace, especially if one is more talented/gifted than the other. When what I posted comes into play is where an individual who has done well and advanced far in one art, begins training in a similar art.

    Even if we get into the idea of dedication, we have the point where an individual goes form one art to another similar art. I would expect that the individual would perform well in the art, however the issue is, when evaluating claims of individuals, taking into account how long they were in the arts, should we also take into account that they may have jumped rank in an art due to their other training.
  6. lazy guru is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 12:09pm


     Style: Kenpo,Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    well now if the go to another art the sensei should evaluate this person to see the rank that he or she deserve's
  7. AeroChica is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 12:22pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo, MMA and Kids Jiu-Jitsu Style: Boxing, Mom-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Be aware that the mulitple listings of rank may not represent seperate training at all, but a progression of training under different masters. It's a practice I've seen used a few times.

    For example....
    Say I earn my 4th degree black belt in milk karate under Sensei A. Sensei A and I have a falling out and I go to my friend Sensei B. Sensei B does eggs karate, which is similar to milk but not the same, and agrees to grade me, being my friend and all. So on my resume, I put down that I have a 4th degree black belt in milk karate and a 5th degree black belt in eggs karate. It looks like I've trained in two different systems, but I haven't - I am just showing where my belts come from.

    And make no mistake - when you are talking about higher dan ranks, it goes like that. Any kata or skills that you demonstrate are really just for show - attaining higher ranks is based on how friendly you are with the head of the organization and how much work you do to promote it (ie - how much money you bring in).
  8. Black 6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 5:36pm


     Style: Taijutsu, Army Combatives

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AeroChick
    Be aware that the mulitple listings of rank may not represent seperate training at all, but a progression of training under different masters. It's a practice I've seen used a few times.

    For example....
    Say I earn my 4th degree black belt in milk karate under Sensei A. Sensei A and I have a falling out and I go to my friend Sensei B. Sensei B does eggs karate, which is similar to milk but not the same, and agrees to grade me, being my friend and all. So on my resume, I put down that I have a 4th degree black belt in milk karate and a 5th degree black belt in eggs karate. It looks like I've trained in two different systems, but I haven't - I am just showing where my belts come from.

    And make no mistake - when you are talking about higher dan ranks, it goes like that. Any kata or skills that you demonstrate are really just for show - attaining higher ranks is based on how friendly you are with the head of the organization and how much work you do to promote it (ie - how much money you bring in).
    Interesting. I can understand how a falling out would prompt this. Personally, I would find it hard to not have gained an understanding of the nuances of the other art before accepting a high rank in it, but I know there are people out there who would.
  9. Deadmeat is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 6:00pm


     Style: Mixed Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was pretty confident in my submission skills, coming from a competitive MMA/Shootfighting club to Judo, but I found that many things didn't quite cross over fluidly. I was fine with Newaza from the outset of course, but the mechanics of throwing were surprisingly different to the single leg/double leg variations I was used to, and a clinch/body lock is basically asking a judoka to throw you with an Uchi-Mata.

    I've encountered BJJ guys who took up judo to "fill out" their game, and they weren't fast-tracked/promoted, despite being able to submit higher level belts on the ground. The belt prerequisites are very specific in Judo, and a mastery of a given aspect alone is not sufficient to justify advancement.

    My understanding is that the rapid acquisition of additional qualifications/certifications/sashes/belts/whatever is more applicable to Kung Fu styles, as many of them are compatible, and actually augment each other. I'm not an authority on CMA, though, so I could be wrong about that, but that's what I've been told by Tong Long and _ing _un practiitioners alike.
  10. S0meguy is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 8:35pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kyukido, TKD, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadmeat
    I was pretty confident in my submission skills, coming from a competitive MMA/Shootfighting club to Judo, but I found that many things didn't quite cross over fluidly. I was fine with Newaza from the outset of course, but the mechanics of throwing were surprisingly different to the single leg/double leg variations I was used to, and a clinch/body lock is basically asking a judoka to throw you with an Uchi-Mata.

    I've encountered BJJ guys who took up judo to "fill out" their game, and they weren't fast-tracked/promoted, despite being able to submit higher level belts on the ground. The belt prerequisites are very specific in Judo, and a mastery of a given aspect alone is not sufficient to justify advancement.

    My understanding is that the rapid acquisition of additional qualifications/certifications/sashes/belts/whatever is more applicable to Kung Fu styles, as many of them are compatible, and actually augment each other. I'm not an authority on CMA, though, so I could be wrong about that, but that's what I've been told by Tong Long and _ing _un practiitioners alike.
    Absolutely agree. This has been my experience in switching from wrestling to Judo, too.
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