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  1. Nid is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 11:07am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I give my dog salmon oil every day.

    Me? I give myself Budweiser.

    Irrational.
  2. Gypsy Jazz is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 6:33pm


     Style: Does exercise count?

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've been on the cusp of getting myself some fish oil, and I guess this pushes it over the edge. I don't buy much supplement hype, but I guess due to the skeptical nature of the site I trust you guys on a lot of this type of stuff.

    So, the article says 500 mg of fish oil, with 300 EPA and 200 DHA, or to have a larger dose with a similar ratio. It also said: "Once inside your body, omega-3s can quickly lose their power due to oxidation. Look for vitamin E, a.k.a. tocopherol, an antioxidant that can neutralize free radicals" Does that mean taking a vitamin E supplement is a good thing to get along side this? If so, what amount?

    My quick google-fu says "The Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine has set an upper tolerable intake level (UL) for vitamin E at 1,000 mg (1,500 IU) for any form of supplementary alpha-tocopherol per day." off of the NIH website. So I'd assume enough to get vitamin E from other sources without overdoing it. I guess I'll have to check the doses

    Edit: the Mayo clinic says "Recent concerns have been raised about the safety of vitamin E supplementation, particularly in high doses (400 IU/day or greater)"

    I loath nutrition. It is so damn complicated sometimes.
    Last edited by Gypsy Jazz; 7/26/2007 6:36pm at .
  3. Judah Maccabee is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 6:45pm

    supporting memberhall of fameBullshido Newbie
     Style: Krav / (Kick)Boxing / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you're genuinely concerned about oxidation, take a multivitamin, drink some black/green/white/red tea, and eat your fruits and veggies.
  4. ..n.. is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 6:25am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Marine Omega-3 Fatty Acids Have Positive Effect On Muscle Mass, Study Shows
    Article Date: 14 May 2007 - 5:00 PDT

    A research team led by Carole Thivierge, from Universite Laval's Institute of Nutraceutics and Functional Foods, shows that omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil have a positive effect on the metabolism of muscle proteins. This finding, published in a recent edition of the Journal of Physiology, could have significant implications in the fields of animal farming as well as human health.

    In mammals, the ability to use nutrients from food and convert them into muscle proteins decreases with age. Though the exact cause of this phenomenon is still unclear, insulin resistance of aging muscle cells has been suggested as a possible answer.

    Since omega-3 fatty acids are known to improve glucose metabolism in people and animals showing insulin resistance, the researchers decided to test whether omega-3's could also influence protein metabolism.

    To do so, they added supplements containing either omega-3's from fish oil or a mixture of cottonseed and olive oils without omega-3's to the regular diet of steers. After five weeks, animals with the marine omega-3 diet showed increased sensitivity to insulin which, in turn, improved protein metabolism: twice the amount of amino acids was used by their bodies to synthesize proteins, especially in muscles. So it appears that omega-3 fatty acids added to the steers' diet replaced other fatty acids in muscle cells and improved their functioning.

    This finding could have significant implications in the field of animal farming, according to Thivierge, also a professor in Université Laval's Department of Animal Sciences, who undertook this study in order to find an alternative to hormonal growth stimulation in beef cattle.

    At 4 to 6 months of age, calves become less efficient at converting food into muscle mass, which has a negative impact on farming profitability. "Adding fish oil to their diet could prevent this decline by restoring insulin sensitivity in aging animals," suggests the researcher. "In addition, it could contribute to reducing the amount of by-product emissions in the environment, since animals that are given omega-3's spontaneously eat 10% less food to achieve the same weight gain," points out Thivierge.

    Restoring insulin sensitivity through the use of marine omega-3 fatty acids could also prevent the loss of muscle mass in older people and, by the same token, prevent the various health problems associated with it, believes Thivierge. She also suggests that omega-3's could help athletes trying to increase their muscle mass. "However, it should not be seen as a miracle product," she points out. "For increased muscle protein metabolism to take place in people younger than 50, physical training is still required," she concludes.

    ###

    In addition to Thivierge, the article was signed by Andrée-Anne Gingras, Phillip James White, Yvan Chouinard, Luce Dombrowski, Alexandre Myre, Karen Bergeron, and André Marette from the Institute of Nutraceutics and Functional Foods; Pierre Julien from Université Laval Hospital Research Center; Yvon Couture and Pascal Dubreuil from Université de Montréal; and Teresa Davis from the Baylor College of Medicine.

    Information:

    Carole Thivierge
    Institute of Nutraceutics and Functional Foods
    Université Laval

    Dr. Pierre Julien
    Université Laval Hospital Research Center
  5. Asriel is offline
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    I'd like to leave this world like I came into it: Screaming, naked & covered in someone else's blood

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 7:15am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai (BJJ hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Guizzy
    I hate my breath to smell fish in the morning.
    Ask her to have a little wash before she comes to bed?
    " The reason elite level MMAists don't fight with aikido is the same reason elite level swimmers don't swim with their lips." - Virus

    " I shocked him with my skills on the ice becuase Wing Chun is great for hockey fighting." - 'Sifu' Milt Wallace

    "Besides, as you might already know (from Virus, for example) - there's only 1 wing chun and it sucks big time" - Tonuzaba

    "Even when I'm promising mayhem and butt-chicanery, I'm generally posting with a smile on my face." - Sochin101

    "That said, if he blocked my hip on a drop nage, I would extend my leg into a drop tai Otoshi and slam him so hard his parents would die." - MTripp

  6. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 7:30am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A couple of questions, mainly directed toward A.D.D. since he appears to be the fish oil expert.

    1) You said you take between 12 and 16 500 mg caps. Is that per day?
    2) If so, any dangers or upper limit with them? By extenstion, what is the optimal level based on your research?
    4) What brand do you recommend?
    5) What are the advantages of the DHA / EPA over ALA you alluded to?

    I've done some research on this stuff, and started eating flax and fish quite a bit for the Omega-3's already, and I'm just trying to optimize a little more.
  7. A.D.D is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 10:33am

    supporting member
     Style: Fish Oil

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhemsley
    A couple of questions, mainly directed toward A.D.D. since he appears to be the fish oil expert.

    1) You said you take between 12 and 16 500 mg caps. Is that per day?
    2) If so, any dangers or upper limit with them? By extenstion, what is the optimal level based on your research?
    4) What brand do you recommend?
    5) What are the advantages of the DHA / EPA over ALA you alluded to?

    I've done some research on this stuff, and started eating flax and fish quite a bit for the Omega-3's already, and I'm just trying to optimize a little more.

    I only know a little bit about fish oil really.

    1. Yeah, I take between 12 and 16 of the capsules a day.

    2. If you are on any kind of blood thinners or are a hemophiliac you should be careful because they will thin your blood. Talk to your doctor about it eh?

    Optimal level? I guess that depends on who you ask. There are some studies that show that supplementing with 3 grams a day reduces blah blah blah blah blah. Lower incidence of heart disease, certain types of cancer etc. But some people such as Charles Poliquin recommend very large amounts for various goals such as weight loss and muscle gain.

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/charles2.htm

    Fifth topic down:

    http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1371812&cr=

    I don't know if everything he says is true (like about our ancestors) but that is what he recommends to the people he trains.

    4. Any brand that is chemically distilled should be pretty free of contaminants. In that article I originally posted it actually said that most brands are chemically distilled so that is pretty nice to hear.

    But if you really want to be safe about it then you can with brands that have the Meg-3 symbol on them. http://www.meg-3.com/

    Or you can go with Carlson's which has a variety of products including one that is much higher in DHA and also liquid oil's if you prefer that over capsules. If what I have read is correct DHA is more important if your reasons for taking fish oil are more athletically centered. Anti-inflamation specific that is.

    http://www.carlsonlabs.com/product_f...l?categid=0014

    Biotest also makes one called Flameout which has a much larger ratio of DHA to EPA than you usually see (on purpose). It also has some CLA in it. You can read about CLA if you want. But good luck getting it since it goes out of stock so fast.

    http://www.biotest.net/readTopic.do?id=910074

    I've tried the Carlson's lemon flavored oil and the Flameout caps myself. But usually I buy mine at Trader Joe's because I am being cheap and they cost less per mg.

    5. Well your body can use loads of EPA and DHA and your body converts ALA to EPA and DHA. But how much it can and will convert I do not know. I really doubt that if you guzzle ALA it is all going to be converted into EPA and DHA. So if you really want to increase the pressence of EPA and DHA you are going to need to get some directly. There have also been some studies that link too much ALA to, hmm, can't remember if it is an increased risk of prostate cancer or increased rate of prostate cancer progressing in those who already had it. I don't know. Some people say it is better to eat some flax meal rather than guzzle flax seed oil.
  8. Judah Maccabee is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 10:37am

    supporting memberhall of fameBullshido Newbie
     Style: Krav / (Kick)Boxing / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    4) What brand do you recommend?
    Health from the Sun. Although if you go to consumerlab.com and look at their Omega-3 reviews, even the free reviews give you some recommendations. I'd say, pony up the cost for a subscription because they have a LOT of reviews on a LOT of supplements - Creatine, whey protein, green tea capsules, etc.

    2) If so, any dangers or upper limit with them? By extenstion, what is the optimal level based on your research?
    consumlerlab.com says the following:

    A typical dose of fish oil is 6-12 grams daily. However, as noted above, EPA and DHA represent only part of the total oil in fish and their levels vary among products. For most therapeutic uses of omega-3s, the daily dosage of total EPA and DHA tested in studies has ranged from 3-6 grams daily. Higher dosages have been tried by some researchers, especially for the treatment of schizophrenia, Raynaud's phenomenon, and lupus.

    ---

    While there is no official recommended intake for omega-3's in healthy people, some experts have said that a total intake of about 650 milligrams a day is a goal to aim for, with at least 220 mg coming from DHA and at least the same amount from EPA. The remaining 200+ mg can come from either DHA or EPA.
    Up to about 20 grams of fish oil can be well tolerated by most adults. However, such high amounts may not be beneficial and the FDA recommends that consumers not exceed more than a total of 3 grams per day of EPA and DHA omega-3 fatty acids, with no more than 2 grams per day from a dietary supplement.
    5) What are the advantages of the DHA / EPA over ALA you alluded to?
    Again, from consumerlab.com:

    The Mediterranean diet, which has been associated in observational studies with a lower risk of coronary artery disease and possibly certain types of cancer, is high in ALA. However, ALA taken by itself has not been shown to significantly decrease the risk of cardiovascular disease. In contrast, the omega-3 fatty acids "downstream" from ALA, EPA and DHA, have shown potential for reducing triglyceride levels and improving HDL levels, (two important aspects of the cholesterol profile) and provide benefits for a variety of other conditions, including rheumatoid arthritis and menstrual pain not thought to occur with ALA.
    -EDIT-

    Some people say it is better to eat some flax meal rather than guzzle flax seed oil.
    That's true if the flaxseed oil doesn't include lignans with it. Those are usually removed in the process, but some companies put them back in. However, freshly grinding the seeds and sprinkling them on food is the best way to go.
    Last edited by Judah Maccabee; 7/27/2007 10:41am at .
  9. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 12:30pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks Judas and ADD.

    I eat 2 - 3 ozs. of fish 5 - 6 times a week, and eat a serving of ground flax meal (2 tbs.) every morning with breakfast, and don't eat much red meat or pork, so my Omega 3 to 6 ratio is good enough that I didn't really worry about a fish oil supplement prior to this thread. Faulty and foolish assumption on the ALA being turned into the correct amount of DHA and EPA since its the precursor on my part.

    Sounds like I could and should take a few 500 mg supplements of it a day as well to up the DHA and EPA quantities without any danger.
  10. Marrt is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 1:09pm


     Style: default std

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhemsley
    Thanks Judas and ADD.

    I eat 2 - 3 ozs. of fish 5 - 6 times a week, and eat a serving of ground flax meal (2 tbs.) every morning with breakfast, and don't eat much red meat or pork, so my Omega 3 to 6 ratio is good enough that I didn't really worry about a fish oil supplement prior to this thread. Faulty and foolish assumption on the ALA being turned into the correct amount of DHA and EPA since its the precursor on my part.

    Sounds like I could and should take a few 500 mg supplements of it a day as well to up the DHA and EPA quantities without any danger.
    It also pays to think about which fish you're eating too -
    O-3 rich (grams of O-3 per 3.5 oz of fish)
    Mackerel 2.6
    Lake trout 2.0
    Herring 1.7
    Bluefin Tuna 1.6
    Salmon (A.D.D's listing breaks out Salmon breeds)
    Tinned Sardines, Sturgeons, Albacore Tuna - all 1.5

    If you're eating swordfish, snapper, flounder you're getting about 0.2 gm.
    Last edited by Marrt; 7/27/2007 1:13pm at .
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