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  1. roscopeeco is offline

    Featherweight

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    Feb 2007
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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 11:04am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: CKD, BJJ White

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @WingChun Lawyer
    Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn....if you can't see any benefit in the use of shields or body dummies
    then there is no much point in continuing an attempt at a rational discussion
  2. saman is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 11:32am


     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, then, obviously someone in your school is failing to toe the party line:eusa_snoo Wait until the king pin finds out!! By the way, there is nothing wrong with ckd as an exercise program - and in a street fight you're right, anything goes and I really think a karate white belt or a judo white belt could put up one hell of a fight if necessary - oh hell - totally untrained high school boys can have a lethal street fight. But, sparring is fun when done correctly and I guarantee you that nobody "pulls" a punch. I spent over 10 years training and teaching ckd and have heard/done/taught what we are all taught: little training in punching accuracy, little training in good kick defence (please use a nice little ckd block on a REAL kick! Even 3rd dan instructors have broken their arms doing it "correctly") the transition and training for defence to offense, especially in kicking is essentially nonexistent. And I trained with the masters who are touted to be the best, was consistently praised by them as having excellently trained ckd students etc. You are right. The organisation is what drives good instructors out. They are corrupt, and the standards, except when enforced by an individual instructor, SUCK - so why should anyone pay the uncaring leadership so much money? The WTF doesn't ask for promotional fees (except for poom, dan, instructor certification) and they certify my teaching and that of my instructors. ITF is pretty much the same, I believe. It is the lies and misconceptions that are spread by ckd that I have serious problems with. It's the dirty dealings of kwang choi and marshall periera and probably others. They feed on the ignorance of many people for the purpose of $$, $$, $$ that they essentially steal from students and instructors. Go on and tell people the truth - it's good as exercise, will teach you some basic self - defence and will bore you to tears after a while. Older people will do well in ckd. Just don't tell them it will cure their cancer and heart disease any better than any other proper exercise program. If you think that the all CI's who have left continue to teach ckd as is, you are wrong. Most have made substantial changes, including more ground work, more close range defence, HIGHER TRAINING AND TESTING STANDARDS. New organizations, other than perhaps poor mr cook, are simply mutually supportive groups and they do not set up any one individual as "He Who Must Be Obeyed". No sahjonims (or whatever that **** is!) or dojinims (obviously not an elevated enough title after the first 20+ years)
  3. saman is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 11:34am


     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pil Sung to you, WingChun Lawyer! A change that we made right away when we left.
  4. roscopeeco is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 11:57am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: CKD, BJJ White

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @saman
    at last a rational measured response...NICE ONE!! As to some of your points:

    little training in punching accuracy,

    DISAGREE! I've always been taught to always look for accuracy when using a technique. Whether in the defence drill, focus pads or shield drill. Obviously when using the shield drill to execute techniques as quickly as possible you are going to be all over the place to begin with but after a time as your technique at speed improves accuracy will come.

    little training in good kick defence (please use a nice little ckd block on a REAL kick!

    AGREED! Using a block against a kick is plain idiotic...Footwork and angling off are the only way to avoid a kick that I know of although for some strange reason the blocking method still seems to be touted.

    Go on and tell people the truth - it's good as exercise, will teach you some basic self - defence and will bore you to tears after a while.

    AGREED! Although i would say that it teaches you striking self defence. I have got bored with it and also do not like the brown tongueing that goes on

    If you think that the all CI's who have left continue to teach ckd as is, you are wrong. Most have made substantial changes, including more ground work, more close range defence, HIGHER TRAINING AND TESTING STANDARDS.

    AGREE AND DISAGREE! What i meant was they they continue to use the core striking techniques and method of execution. I think the faxct that Choi does not allow instructors to cross train will have played a part in many instructors leaving.

    Pil Sung!
  5. WingChun Lawyer is offline
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar

    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 12:13pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by roscopeeco
    @WingChun Lawyer
    Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn....if you can't see any benefit in the use of shields or body dummies
    then there is no much point in continuing an attempt at a rational discussion
    I never said that, donīt put words in my mouth: I did Muay Thai for some years, and I know very well how much bagwork and pad hitting can be a good thing.

    But if you donīt spar you will not be able to translate your skills to a living, REACTING human being. Thatīs my point.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  6. roscopeeco is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 12:32pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: CKD, BJJ White

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @WingChun Lawyer
    But if you donīt spar you will not be able to translate your skills to a living, REACTING human being. Thatīs my point.

    Sorry but this is complete tosh. Many years ago as a kid up until the age of 19 i was getting into scraps all the time. I had no martial arts training and managed to clock people no problem. If you really want to hit someone you'll do it regardless of whether you have martial arts training or not.

    Fast forward 14 years and before i started martial arts and i was sucker punched twice in six months but did not retaliate.

    The only difference between the two was a mental decision to fight instead of flight...it had **** all at all to do with whether i had sparred or not.
  7. Bolverk is offline

    Ex-ATA and Proud of it.

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 12:33pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by roscopeeco
    @Bolverk
    We train defence drills where you use techniques against a training partner.

    Are you saying that the use of shields is a worthless drill? Because if you are then you are full of ****
    No, I am saying sheilds are a fine way to develope some power in your technique without killing your partner. They, however, will not teach you **** about control. If you think they do, then you are sadly mistaken. And they certainly ain't **** for developing accuracy in punching. Unless of course you are using focus mits, and using them properly.

    Non-contact sparring teaches you to miss, not hit. So I would love to see one of your guys come to our school and spar.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  8. Bolverk is offline

    Ex-ATA and Proud of it.

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 12:37pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by roscopeeco
    @WingChun Lawyer
    Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn....if you can't see any benefit in the use of shields or body dummies
    then there is no much point in continuing an attempt at a rational discussion
    In order for us to have a rational discussion, you must be rational. Wing Chun Lawyer is correct. Sheilds have their place in training, but that is a limited place at best. You can argue and insult until your face turns blue for all I care, that does not make you right.

    Choi Kwang Do is about as useful as ATA Taekwondo. I bet ATA Taekwondo probably ranks higher, but not by much, to be sure. Come show me some footwork. Come show me some skill. Come spar with me. Show me that your art is useful.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  9. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 12:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by roscopeeco
    Sorry but this is complete tosh. Many years ago as a kid up until the age of 19 i was getting into scraps all the time. I had no martial arts training and managed to clock people no problem. If you really want to hit someone you'll do it regardless of whether you have martial arts training or not.

    Fast forward 14 years and before i started martial arts and i was sucker punched twice in six months but did not retaliate.

    The only difference between the two was a mental decision to fight instead of flight...it had **** all at all to do with whether i had sparred or not.
    Ah, but there is one big flaw in your "it is only mental" rationale.

    Scrapping is not usually done with killing machines or with trained fighters. It is done with other idiots who want to scrap, usually drunken.

    Quite frankly, you probably never faced a good fighter to begin with. If you did he would show you how sparring makes it all better, faster, tougher, and harder.

    And yes, I can tell you that simply from what you posted here.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  10. roscopeeco is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2007 12:42pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: CKD, BJJ White

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @WingChun Lawyer
    Scrapping is not usually done with killing machines or with trained fighters. It is done with other idiots who want to scrap, usually drunken.
    EXACTLY!!!! Sports fighters can't see beyond their who can piss highest game. Even a trained tough guy sucker punched in a bar may well be on the floor for an extended 10 count.
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