8/16/2007 2:09am, #21Originally Posted by Hanniballistic
If you do wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, submission wrestling, or something else beltless, or if it's just taking too long for you to get a black belt at a legit BJJ, Judo, Jujitsu, or Karate school, the CKD dojo some 20 minutes from my home has an expediated black belt program.
That way, you can open up your own school, with your crappy blue belt in BJJ, but still say you're a Black Belt in CKD and look TOTALLY legit!
What a solution.
I'll hook up the link to this McDojo near my home soon.
In the meanwhile... :seppuku:
EDIT: Here's the link... Three Year Black Belt Program
Last edited by krazy kaju; 8/16/2007 2:15am at .
8/17/2007 7:14am, #22
Originally Posted by krazy kaju
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
8/23/2007 9:52am, #23
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
- united kingdom
Firstly a little back ground on myself. I have a 1st dan in ITF style taekwondo with the GTI (Global Taekwondo international) and ITS (independent Taekwondo schools) My grading was performed by Master Frank Murphy (6th dan) in 1999 and I have been training for around 15 years. In the last eight I have been trying a variety of styles including, jujitsu, judo, aikido, tai chi, tiger crane combination kung fu, WTF taekwondo, bujinkan ninjitsu, wing chun, muay thai and sport karate. I stuck with the sport karate as it has no politics and the instructor makes a point of saying it is not for self defence but is a sport, this is no way detracts from the quality of the tuiton or the techniques which are taught. I have been to several seminars with famous martial artists including peter consterdine, geoff thompsom and rick young. I have even been to one or to more controversial ones such as george dillman and the rival DSI (dragon society international) with Tom Muncy.
My experience of Cho kwang do is through research on the internet and through trying a class. I will try to be fair in this post and provide a balanced view based on my martial arts experience so far. I have tried a choi kwang do class in dorking at alan tipsons club. He was approachable and friendly willing to answer most questions regarding self defence and effectiveness.
I found the way they taught kicking and punching to be ackward and not as natural as they claimed(but I had done lots of other trianing so it might just take som getting used to.) but the power they produced from their tecniques was reasonable. The yoga style warm up was not to my liking as I found I was stiff during the lesson (but again this could just be the fact that my body was not used to it.).
What I did take exception to was the effectiveness of their self defence. I have picked up an eclectic experience of self defence methods from the diferent arts I have studied or tried. While I can appreciate that non contact training is essential when learning a technique to pick up the finer points, to actually make it work you have to pressure test it.
For example The jitsu foundation have a good way of doing this where the attacker throws one technique but does so full force. They then introduce two lines of attackers armed with different weapons (eg plastic bottle for a glass one, wooden tanto for a knife). The problem with this is that you get used to a formulaic way of defending against certain attacks. Muay Thai I found gave a more fluid and adaptive experience when defending yourself while retaining full contact. The problem with this is that it limits the amount of throws and locks you can use basically none. So each system has its limitations where self defence training is involved but they do all include at some point a little contact to add a sense of urgency and realism to the attack.
Choi kwang do misses this out entirely and because of this it is much easier to get the technique you are applying to work. This is a similar problem to aikido but they say they are trying to learn to go with a technique and at the higher levels they practice at full speed and strength. Choi kwang do does not state this they simple say that it is too dangerous to get hit all the time. The way you train is the way you fight as Geoff Thompson explains and although you can't do animal day (full contact and pressure testing training) training every lesson, if you don't ever hit a person or get hit even semi contact then you have a serious chink in your armour as you won't know how you will react.
Have a look at Ralph Allisons club Suttonckd at the video section http://www.suttonckd.co.uk/videos.html The video with mast choi entitled wes side story shows him throwing different techniques a few against Master Marshall Periera who flinchs and looks like he has never been attacked before. This is a case in point. The natural instinct when hit is to turn away and curl up into a standing or lying foetal position. The point of martial arts training is to retrain this instinct through understanding and applied kowledge which shows that the foetal position is the worst thing to do as it is a total submission and shows you expect to take a beating (this might work if your assailent takes pity on you or just laughs at you but thats a slim chance to risk your life on).
Now onto the most attractive claim by Choi Kwang Do that you can learn to strike with the same or more power as a traditional martial artist but with out the injuries that can come from it.
The CKD ethos is that traditional martial arts lock out the joints when striking with punchs or kicks. Master Choi worked with several professionals in several scientific fields such as bio mechanics to come up with movements that don't lock out the joints but that provide the same power.
Firstly we have to identify these "traditional techniques". In Tae kwon do you learn to ways of punching, one is the traditional way used in forms which is similar if not the same as karate kata. Here you throw a punch with your body facing fully forward and you don't extend the shoulder but keep both shoulder parallel. The second way of punching is the one you use in sparing and self defense which is basically the boxing punch. You have a guard and you use the rotation of the body centred throw the hips to produce speed and power while keeping your guard as intact as possible. Kicking is taught in only one way where you chamber the leg before snapping it out to kick. All these methods carry the risk of locking joints if not carried out properly, but none of them require locking out or over extending the joint as a necessity. The most risky is the traditional type as it uses a quick snap to look impressive (I threw out my shoulder with a traditional punch) but is done to the air so there is nothing to take the actual force.
Choi Kwang do punches and kicks are strange to the uniniated. They have removed all the traditional style punchs and kicks so their claim to be less risky than some traditional martial arts is true. , for their front kick they keep the leg bent at around a 140 degree angle and kick straight up. This produces a fair amount of power with out locking out the joint but is very ackward to make work. It does reduce the risk of locking out the joint but I still felt a twinge when doing it and the pushing power of the kick was greatly reduced. I can't do a critique of every technique as I only went to one class but this is a reasonable example. They have removed all the traditional style punchs and kicks so their claim to be less risky than some traditional martial arts is true. However the techniques they do if done full power to the air without hitting a target are still risky. By removing some of the risk they have also removed a lot of the power that can be generated. This is comparable to Tai Chi although that is more concerned with throwing and locking with strikes as a lead or setup to the former.
The scientific claims of CKD made on Sutton CKD website http://www.suttonckd.co.uk/videos.html seem to be made by qualified people. Dr Ben Johnson is certainly a qualified man http://www.kennesaw.edu/col_hhs/hps/...OHNSON-BEN.htm
But the actual statement he makes is not all that revolutionary. He said that when they compared the choi Kwang Do techniques to that of other martial arts they found that because of the follow through of CKD techniques the power was greater. But any decent striker knows that to deliver maximum power you have to aim through the target by at least two inches (bruce lee mentions this).
From looking at the techniques when perfomed by grand master Choi himself their does not seem to be a vast difference between what kick boxers and taekwondo sparrers do and what he himself does.
I applaud the effort to reduce the risk of injury during training and to increase the focus on self defence made by any one. What I dispute about Choi Kwang Do are the actual technical merit of the art. The claims they make are not backed up by the art itself.
All this is without even taking into consideration all the politics of choi kwang do which are even more heated than those between WTF and ITF taekwondo. If even half the claims made by Roger Koo are true then the validity and character of Choi Kwang Do must be called into question.
On an international level it appears choi kwang do is a franchised mcdojo of the worst kind with expensive overpriced membership fees and a questionable quality assurance in terms of their syllabus. On a club level it depends on the instructor you have and how well they teach you.
At its best I would say it is good as a gentle form of exercise accessible to all ages that will introduce you to the concepts of self defence while helping to develop your physical confidence in a friendly welcoming environment. At its worst I would say it instills false belief in your abilities, overstates the effectiveness of the art and overall is a poor path to learning to defend yourself which could have disastrous consequences if used in a real life situation.
8/30/2007 12:05pm, #24
Seriously though, that's a hell of a laundry list of styles there. I count eleven things in 15 years. You went to a Dillman seminar too. Impressive. Why do you claim MT when you say in the body of your post that you do sport krotty?
If their strikes are so unusual why do they look just like bad krotty in their sparring videos?
Did you seriously just describe Tai Chi as a style all about locking and throwing with strikes leading in to the former? Wow. So CKD is roughly as powerful as tai chi, huh?
Finally, did you really just show us a c.v. of a guy with an Ed.D. and declare that his scientific assessment of CKD is beyond reproach? I hate these emergent bullshit fields like "biomechanics." Get an M.D. and a Ph.D. or STFU. He's a super gym teacher.
8/31/2007 2:12pm, #25
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
- united kingdom
Glad someone actually read my huge Choi rant despite the amount of grammatical mistakes.
Yes I have tried a lot of different martial arts, as I wanted to get to know what they had to offer and how they were different. I spent my first six years studying taekwondo to 1st dan between 1993 and 1999. The last eight years I have been to university and moved around alot because of jobs. I could go into a ridiculously detailed chronology but because I often trained in several styles at a time it would be hard to keep up with. In terms of time here is the amount I have spent in the other arts. 4 years of Muay Thai, 3 of WTF taekwondo,3 years of sport karate, 1 year in judo, 6 months tai chi, 4 months of Nam yang Kungfu, 2 months of Aikido, 2 lessons of wing chun, 1 lesson of an ex bujinkan ninjitsu club and of course one lesson of Choi kwnag do. Oh sorry forgot to include 3 months boxing, 2 lessons of Tang soo do and a month of Qigong.
You can l argue that I am not consistent enough in the last few years, I simple wanted to experience a variety of styles and I certainly don't claim to have mastered any of them. But it has given me enough experience to talk about each art broadly. I might not be the best fighter in the world but I certainly understand the principles and how and why different techniques work. I only put this info down to establish that I not a complete beginner in the martial arts.
The dillman seminar was an interesting few hours but not worth the money he charges, I went with my former taekwondo instructor who was a bouncer in Brighton and a very practical martial artist. I much preferred meeting Geoff thompson whose seminar on self defense was fantastic.
I do apologise you are right about me claiming muay thai and doing sport karate Check the my Id better?.I mention sport karate as it is what I am training in presently. Why am studying Sport Karate not muay thai or something else? I am friends with the instructor and enjoy the training and like the atmosphere of the club. I will be going back to muay thai and judo early next year when I have a little more time (have just changed jobs).
I didn't get to study all their techniques first hand(hence I only critique one that I did experience a lot in that session. I was trying to be objective which is the point of an evaluation of style. I agree that most of their techniques are just bad "krotty" but they believe they are safer. (notice they not I).
Did I SERIOUSLY just describe tai chi as a style all about locking and throwing with strikes leading to the former? Yes. If you know anything about Tai chi(the martial arts aspect not the health one) then it does contain strikes, throws and locks. If you take away the Chi stuff this is what you are left with. I said nothing about how effective it is, that depends on the person not the art.
Finally, YES I did show you a cv of a guy with a few more qualifications than most. Did I say anywhere that his scientific assessment was beyond reproach. In fact didn't I actually critique it (maybe not particularly harshly). Bio mechanics is not entirely bullshit, it simply applies physics to body movement in an effort to explain how force is generated. Unfortunately it is claimed by people like Choi to be infallible and almost biblical.
By the way may I ask what your experience is so I can better inform my self of the validity of your opinions.
But going beyond the personal offense and defense act wasn't the point of this thread to discuss Choi Kwang Do and offer up our experiences of it. I have done this if you want to waste time attacking me because you feel I have no experience or because I tried to be to objective then fine. But why not do one better and put your knowledge and experience to use on Choi Kwang Do.
8/31/2007 6:13pm, #26
- Join Date
- May 2005
- East Coast
CKD is , to me and my thank god zero experience with it , fucking stupid. It appears to be anti-training ; actually paying someone to make you a total fag.
8/31/2007 9:41pm, #27Originally Posted by fubarYou are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM
just die already.Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM
Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
9/01/2007 10:23pm, #28
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- New York
i've never really been offended by bullshido, on a real level like this, but that 4 picture diagram of the guy jump kicking and that double forearm block bullshit was just offensive to anyone with minimal intelligence. the only way i see that not being offensive if its for strictly art purposes (i.e theater, movies, dance), its should front as a combat system.
9/01/2007 10:34pm, #29Originally Posted by Vulgar42Ox
9/02/2007 12:33am, #30Originally Posted by Slindsay
Post more in YMAS, so I can + Rep you for works like this. Well done!Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
...Willing is not enough you must do ~Bruce Lee