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  1. roscopeeco is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2007 8:26am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: CKD, BJJ White

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @Saman
    Ok so i am the victim of a cynical manipulative money making ploy. Funny thing is I can see method behind the madness of having more gradings.
  2. Hanniballistic is offline
    Hanniballistic's Avatar

    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2007 11:20am


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by saman
    What does that mean?
    It means you have a style saying "we do REAL self-defence...but not to the head of course"

    I suppose this is fair enough when you think about it. After all no-one would think of attacking the head in a self-defence situation......
  3. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2007 11:23am


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by roscopeeco
    @Saman
    Ok so i am the victim of a cynical manipulative money making ploy. Funny thing is I can see method behind the madness of having more gradings.
    So can I - the organisation makes a shitload more money...that's it really
  4. saman is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 7:26am


     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know that you are a victim. Are they greedy and manipulative? Absolutely YES. Lots of people enjoy more frequent testing. But, the reasoning put forward as to why there are so many gradings in ckd was a clever "spin" to disguise choi's loss of income from his crazy behavior. That's the issue here. Not your personal victimization at the hands of your instructor. If anyone is a victim, it is he or she. However many of them just see it as the cost of doing business.
  5. roscopeeco is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 9:25am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: CKD, BJJ White

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @SAMAN
    Do you think that Choi really believes all of the stuff that he spouts or is a means to an end to get more money? And what part does Mr.P play in it all?
  6. roscopeeco is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 9:29am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: CKD, BJJ White

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @SAMAN
    I've heard (can;t remember where) that Mr.P was invlolved in pyramid marketing in the 80's...could he be a major part of the problem or do you think Choi would be the same without him?
  7. cyril is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 9:50am


     Style: No-Gi BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanniballistic
    So can I - the organisation makes a shitload more money...that's it really
    I know in the case of our TKD school, may it rest fitfully in hell, we have more testings to keep the person in a belt location longer. The problem is that the people who own the corp. think differently from the people who run the schools, and so the corp. gets together a codified ranking system.

    Now kiddies line up to get in their testings to make the next rank, but in reality the more testings help to keep them practicing the same set of curriculum longer.

    Ex. We do a four stripe black belt process. You get to Black belt L4 before you test for 2nd Dan.

    You can only test on every other grading, so you have a black belt L1, for two gradings, an L2 for two gradings, L3, etc. This leads up to at least 8 months before you can make second dan, and it gets longer from there.

    Not ideal for the buyer, since you need a brand spankin new belt every testing so you can get a little L# inscribed on your belt, but it does help to keep the kids at the lower ranks longer. In TKD, Black belt is the basics. We're just moving up from there.

    Further idiocy, You don't really have to show up to ALL of the classes, you only have to show up to two a week during the cycle when you'll be testing. That lets you get the required amount of classes in to test. Aren't McDojangs wonderful?
  8. madmonkey is offline

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    united kingdom
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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 10:24am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    rosco,

    thanks for the reasoned reply, you do yourself credit as on other web martial arts forums very CKD'ers actually argue in a logical and point for point way.

    As to the number of belts, this is a contentious issue in martial arts. Originally most japanese and other asian arts didn't bother with belts. The heirarchy of the school was by age ability or most often by length of training at that school (loyalty). You would progress from beginner to intermediate to Adept/instructer level, where upon you would where a black belt.

    More belts appear to have been brought in when westerners stationed in the far east started to learn the arts. The explanation for this is usually that they were not patient enough to study for long lengths of time (or possible because their tours of duty ended) so the masters of different arts broke the syllabus down into chunks and had a belt for each chunk to give students a greater sense of achievement.

    In a modern context this practice has survived as it ensures loyalty and increases the chances of students staying with the art. By achieving a grade you feel like you have achieved something and want to continue therefore you keep training. Even if you are the same standard as a higher belt you still have to go through the same structure, this teaches patience and humility but also means you pay more money over a greater period of time both for the gradings but also the training.

    Is this a bad practice yes and no. It can teach discipline, loyalty, humility, patience, but it doesn't necessarily improve your ability unless the syllabus is well structured and delivered in which case it can be very useful for the instructor in teaching as it brings order out of chaos.

    Of course if this system is abused the money element takes over. Nothing wrong with making a living from what you teach but only if you ensure the students are actually progressing and learning new but also applicable stuff.

    I would say choi and periera are more about the money as the spin they generate is not needed if the martial art was as effective as they say.

    thats my 2 cents

    Ncik
  9. saman is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 10:28am


     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I (as well as many others) think that choi believes what he says and lots of it is true. But the spin is the deception. Sometimes P does crazy ass stuff to pad his own pockets and, I think, doesn't let choi know. That seems to have originally been the case when he devised his first instructor training program and charged a bunch of people a shitload of $$. Apparently choi had no idea about that and was not too happy when he found out. other times we think that P, being the ego-maniac that he is, is a good way for choi to carry out some crap and he (choi) can sit back and it looks like P's doings. Periera is quite childish most of the time but is charismatic.
    Now, back to what choi believes. The problem is NOT that all of it is untrue. The problem is the lie (or delusion - i.e. a lie that he truly now believes) that HE invented something so radical and new and that it is the ONLY way and anyone who deviates from that way is bad, disloyal, blah, blah. He did not invent the stretches done in ckd. He did not invent the sequence of them. Do they help people? Of course. But it is NOT exclusive to ckd - as the party line propaganda spouts. The unique patterns? Check out old style tkd - there they are. But as they go higher, it gets dumbed down. In ckd, higer instructors are really isolated and are discouraged in a very strong manner that investigating other arts, associating with masters from other arts (especially tkd or karate). I think that is to help cement the delusion that there is something so special about ckd because if they ever saw the truth it might sway their "loyalty". Truth is, old fashioned ITF style tkd (which is what choi did) is stiff and is nothing but renamed shotokan karate. Even the modern, non-N.Korean ITF style is not so much with the lock out punches and kicks. WTF style tkd has ALWAYS used sequential motion. Problem is, the Korean masters, who have limited English have difficulty explaining it with scientific English. choi was smart enough to get a couple of chiropractors to give him some words for this and he has made it seem that he invented it. the so-called scientific expose of the tkd reverse punch was flawed and has never been duplicated. To put forth this so-called experiment as scientific fact is wrong, dishonest, deceptive, ... To breed the arrogance in students and instructors as he wants is a combination of choi and periera.
    Would choi be the same? Probably. He needed a p and the p needed a choi. I think they have similar character, but choi is a lot smarter than periera and knows how not to flaunt the bullshit quite so noisily. Now, the question of whether ckd would be the same is very different. It might still be a less demanding style of m.a. but would have pissed off far fewer people if choi was not who he is and periera had simply gone to prison in the UK.
    Truth about choi is that he is NOT respected by the korean community in GA due to his own and his wife's arrogance and this whole thing of bashing every other ma out there that his countrymen have put their lives into. This sudden desire to ally himself with the korean tkd group mentioned in the tkd times article is just crazy crap to try and get ckd into korea where he is also disrespected. The organisation mentioned is a faux organisation - try to check it out. It's always hard for people (especially students and "loyal" instructors) to believe the stuff on Roger Koo's website or that it could still be going on. But it is.
    Re p's pyramid scheme - hadn't heard that one, but knowing him, it could be true. After all, the whole "rebate" thing that encouraged school owners to help their black belts open schools was set up like that. Now they have centralised the process and charge a shitload more than before for it. I was once told (by a source who knows him - in the Biblical sense) that he could not be trusted with money and that he had, apparently, appropriated the use of student's credit cards for his own expenditures. Supposedly they were none too pleased by his actions and tried to have him deported, but choi paid for lawyers and made it right with the complainants.
  10. roscopeeco is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 12:17pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: CKD, BJJ White

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @Nick
    There are plenty of Choiers who will argue from a technical point when discussing it. I think most people don't really give a toss as they just enjoy it for what it is and have not been exposed to any dodgy dealings or questionable practices.

    The belt system is structured so that you concentrate on just one hand and foot technique at each grading.

    Each belt colour has a junior and senior grade so at the junior grading you use the rear version of the hand technique and the front version of the kicking technique. At senior level the reverse is done. Also at junior level you perform a simple version of the pattern whereas at senior level you perform 4 directional patterns on both the left and right side.

    To me it makes sense as it simplifies things but as has been stated it brings in a shed load more money for HQ.

    Cheers
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