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  1. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/24/2007 6:11pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gallantknight
    And Judo? I'll try looking into it... however, I've read about it before and apparently modern Judo is a very much watered-down version of the original art.
    You'll hear this from time to time, and it's pretty much propaganda from schools and arts that can't fight. In the last decade and a half, the UFC and similar MMA organisations have shown that when you strip the rules away, it's the sports that survive, because they spar hard. Well, judo did it first.

    19th century Japan had a lot of different jujitsu styles. Jujitsu had been the training of the samurai, but the long peace of the Edo period had turned it in many instances into an art form instead of a fighting art. The jujitsu styles which did spar were often plagued with injuries.

    Enter Jigoro Kano, a young man from a wealthy family. Part of his genius was to see that sparring was the main way of developing skill in the art, and so he set about developing a jujitsu style that could be sparred with full contact frequently without incurring a high level of injuries. He drew techniques from a number of jujitsu schools; he was an accredited master of Kito-Ryu Jujitsu, and was also well trained in Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, but he borrowed greedily from all sources he could lay his hands on. He founded the Kodokan, the first and greatest judo school.

    This. incidentally, is where the "watered down" accusation comes from, in that Kano stripped out a great many techniques that could not be trained full speed against resistance. However, the results speak for themselves. In challenge match after challenge match, the Kodokan overcame other jujitsu styles, the most famous being the battle with Yoshin Ryu for the right to teach the Tokyo Police Department in 1886. Much of this is documented in the Kodokan's records. Judo spread rapidly through Japan, causing many of the older styles to adapt judo into their curriculum or become minority interests. It then went on to spread across the rest of the world by a similar process, though in the West the challenge matches were generally against boxers and wrestlers.

    Judo continues to be considered a strong art, and sees a fair degree of representation in MMA even given its tendency to focus on use of the gi. Judo competition matches have got shorter as its popularity has grown, and this has led to a reduction in the emphasis on and quality of submission groundfighting; however, it remains second only to BJJ in that regard and it's widely respected for its range of devastating throws.
  2. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2007 6:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    19th century Japan had a lot of different jujitsu styles. Jujitsu had been the training of the samurai, but the long peace of the Edo period had turned it in many instances into an art form instead of a fighting art. The jujitsu styles which did spar were often plagued with injuries.
    Is that really true historically or were they actually doing something about as rough as MMA (or perhaps less so) in a pacifistic period of Japanese history ?

    I remember reading something _I think_ translated from Kano to the effect that he removed striking because audiences found it too violent for the sensibilities of the time.

    I'm genuinely interested in your opinion as you know much more about Judo and its history than I do.
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  3. new2bjj is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2007 9:05pm


     Style: TKD, MT, KEMPO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist
    if you can't learn to handle your mother, then you have no hope in ever having a successful relationship with any woman.

    stop letting her push you around, man!
    If he's 17, she's still paying for his lessons. MY house, my rules. When he's 18, he can do what he wants.
  4. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/24/2007 9:23pm

    supporting member
     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Keep telling yourself it'll matter when you're 18.
  5. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2007 6:52am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Is that really true historically or were they actually doing something about as rough as MMA (or perhaps less so) in a pacifistic period of Japanese history ?

    I remember reading something _I think_ translated from Kano to the effect that he removed striking because audiences found it too violent for the sensibilities of the time.

    I'm genuinely interested in your opinion as you know much more about Judo and its history than I do.
    Some koryu schools did have randori-like methods. Kito-Ryu had an attack/counter style drill called ranotoru which was fairly freeform, though less so than Kano's randori. Most others were training primarily through kata, and many of those surviving koryu styles still do so. However, I believe some of these did engage in sparring with more advanced students. Kano's Tenshin Shinyo Ryu instructor appears to have introduced "free fighting" to him fairly early on, but I'm not sure what rules of engagement were put on this.
    (This link probably won't be operational for long, but linking directly to e-budo requires logging in; it's a Google cache of an e-budo discussion on this:
    http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...nk&cd=23&gl=uk )


    It's also worth mentioning that Kano's discovery of "kuzushi", focusing on breaking the posture first and then attempting the throw, was widely considered a feature unique to judo and a major factor in its superiority. The constant sparring was a large part of what made judo successful, but it also had a strategic edge (as did BJJ later with its "position before submission" mantra).

    I can't really comment on the striking angle, save to point out that the training equipment was comparatively primitive, which may have been one factor, and boxing had largely cornered the market already.
  6. gallantknight is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2007 12:10am


     Style: CMA/Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    TO REPULSIVE MONKEY or anyone else who's been to/ seen the JiFeng guys in action:

    They do actually spar and stuff, right? Does anyone know what the curriculum is like? I really can't garner all too much information from the site. Any help would be appreciated.

    And now that I think about it, I do think it to be prompt that I learn Judo or BJJ (Though I don't really want to learn BJJ <_<) so yeah, that Judo advice is good. I think I'll try looking into that too, though I dunno how I'm going to manage two martial arts at the same time + school + working out + possible part time job. How do you guys do it? XD
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