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  1. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2007 6:40pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kickcatcher
    " should act in a determined and realistic manner, not do a lemon impression.
    "Non-Lemon" is the key to pressure testing. If I attack you and you fail to defend yourself my next shot should knock you down on your ass - anything less on my part and I am not doing my job as an attacker.

    I remember when I first ran an "Animal Day" at my club. The look of terror on peoples faces when you hit them (albeit with gloves on) as hard as you can and then proceed to follow it up with similar shots is quite funny!

    Most schools - even full contact - shy away from "all out" training because there is a high risk of injury of you subject the students to this all the time. It also is a great way to lose the more casual student who simply do not want that type of training intensity. Geoff was always one of my early heroes along with his partner Peter Consterdine.

    Geoff also has a pedigree of fighting on "the cobbles" that is beyond question. What he presents is a "solution to a problem that should not exist" namely combat systems not working in combat.

    He is not an RBSD guy - he is a guy who believes that ANY system has value provided it has been tested and proven in teh line of fire. He has his own way and will happily let you walk your own as long as what you are saying and doing are consistent and deliver what they promise.
  2. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Misguided style basher

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    Posted On:
    7/23/2007 7:17pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cool, a Brit?

    Please describe the various pressure testing drills for reference to others who might see the first vids I posted and not really get why we're saying they are not pressure testing.

    As for Geoff not being RBSD, I think that's exactly what he is and certainly what he let himself be marketed as - it's the wannabe soldiers of fortune that give the term RBSD a bad name IMO. Sadly they outnumber the normal people in the RBSD world.
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
  3. Arhetton is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/23/2007 10:58pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree kickcatcher it also annoys me that many of the weapon defences (a subject which has to be serious) look crazy.

    I think the RBSD unarmed training is okay (the arms length provocative yelling type of stuff).

    When I was training in kung fu I was being taught knife defence which I thought was highly suspect. I did a bit of reading and basically concluded that if someone really wants to kill you with a knife, they pretty much will (no defence possible).

    Robbery is a different story but what kind of person takes risks like that (gamble with your life over whatever is in your pocket)?

    Hanniballistic what sort of tactical training have you undergone in regards to advice and training for knives and small firearms (pistols)?

    I was under the impression that a knife is just as dangerous as a pistol within a certain range (I think its 12 feet or something).

    There was a pretty famous controversy in australia when a man with a knife was gunned down on the beach by several policemen, its not exactly related to the topic but I'm pretty sure law enforcement training is not to holster your pistol and proceed to systema the knife wielder.
  4. Ginja Ninja is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2007 8:02am


     Style: Fat, rusty-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Another brit and Geoff fan here. Apologies if this post gets a bit long.

    I used to post of Geoff Thompson's forums. It was a good board, with a mostly older crowd. There were a lot of doormen (either active or retired) and a few coppers and prison officers on there, and while the atmosphere was very respectfull, they would not hesitate to call a 'master' on bullshit.

    Those guys had a good approach, and would take advice on punching from boxers and kicks from Thai fighters, throws from judo, etc because they recognised that it is best to learn something from someone who specialises in it.

    The pressure testing (and I tried this a while ago) isn't just about "going hard", it's taking people out of their comfort zone. A lot of fighters train to sport fight, and regardless of how hardcore they train, its the mental game that can shake them. For example, a boxer trains full contact and hard, but knows that if he is in trouble the ref will stop it. The BBJ player knows he can tap out if he's getting mullered.

    Pressure testing should make you think "Christ, he's going to kill me!". You realise that you can't put your hands up and say "whoa whoa whoa!! time out" - you get used to thinking "if I don't get out of this by myself, I'm not going to get out of this at all". Fighting when you're tired and fighting when your arsehole is twitching are two different animals.

    As other posters have said, its not something to do every session - but its a great way to test the mental strength. This is why the British army used to do "milling" - two guys in boxing gloves swinging for the fences and you're NOT allowed to box, but have to win through sheer aggression. You realise that 5 rounds of padwork gives you eneough gas for 30 seconds of true fighting.

    Sadly, like everything else, the larpers are getting their hands on the concept and feed their students easy tests, pretending to push them and giving the pioneers like Geoff Thompson and Dave Turton a bad name.
  5. Spezza is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2007 1:54pm


     Style: Escrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^ Agreed.

    One problem is the term "RBSD" has different connotations for different people...

    For some on this board, they use this term to describe the apex of fantasy-based self-defense traning.

    For others, they use it to refer to some of the better or best "self-defense specific training" out there.

    Throwing out the whole idea of RBSD (whatever one wants to call it) just because some people are delusional in their training methods, is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's like judging all grappling by the crappling taught at McDojos.

    I KNOW there is good RBSD (or what ever term one wishes to use) out there because I have trained with some of those teachers.

    I haven't trained with Geoff Thompson, but I like his philosophy & training methods. I have trained some with Richard Dimitri (Canada) and I think he is about as good as it gets in this field. EXCELLENT scenario training/pressure testing.

    There are some clips on Youtube of some Senshido training group in Australia. Check them out. They look like a clusterfu@k --which is a good thing-- because that's what real fights tend to be.
    Last edited by Spezza; 7/24/2007 2:02pm at .
  6. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2007 5:58pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Arhetton

    Hanniballistic what sort of tactical training have you undergone in regards to advice and training for knives and small firearms (pistols)?
    We cover combat usage in pistol and shotgun and close range disarms for the same. If people are close in it is VERY easy to disarm, but you must have a high level of confidence in yourself.


    The firearms are presure tested under stress conditions vis a vis noise, distractions and fatigue. We also cover wounded officer drills and combative mindset. the philosophy is to "no matter what happens finish the fight" when it is started.

    Winning is also the only option

    With regards to knives there are disarms and tactics used (sometimes called pat,wrap attack for short) and we practice using shock-knives. I have fought against knoves in teh real world too when making arrests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arhetton
    I was under the impression that a knife is just as dangerous as a pistol within a certain range (I think its 12 feet or something).
    Close - it is actually 26 feet

    Quote Originally Posted by Arhetton
    There was a pretty famous controversy in australia when a man with a knife was gunned down on the beach by several policemen, its not exactly related to the topic but I'm pretty sure law enforcement training is not to holster your pistol and proceed to systema the knife wielder.
    Nope - "put the knife down" BANG! would probably be my response
  7. Arhetton is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/24/2007 6:36pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for answering :)

    I'm surprised at the 26 feet, more than double what I was expecting. Thats about 8 metres!

    Shock knives are the training equipment that is in the shape of a knife but it a high powered tazer (electronic zap touch) aren't they? That sounds cool - I suppose thats good because theres a bit of punishment for doing things wrong instead of the old rubber/wooden knife routine lol.

    What did you think of the first two videos Kickcatcher posted? I don't know very much about weapon defence, but I'm pretty sceptical about it in general.
  8. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2007 6:51pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Arhetton
    Thanks for answering :)

    I'm surprised at the 26 feet, more than double what I was expecting. Thats about 8 metres!

    Shock knives are the training equipment that is in the shape of a knife but it a high powered tazer (electronic zap touch) aren't they? That sounds cool - I suppose thats good because theres a bit of punishment for doing things wrong instead of the old rubber/wooden knife routine lol.

    What did you think of the first two videos Kickcatcher posted? I don't know very much about weapon defence, but I'm pretty sceptical about it in general.
    The first video was a two person kata, done with more than two people and performed wearing shitty clothes to give it s facade of realism.....I have seen more self protection techniques in Tae Bo

    I suppose if you did the routine fast enough you might get a very light cardio workout in...

    The second video I would not even wipe my arse on - absolutely appalling and the worst excuse for pressure testing I have ever seen

    Shock knives are great! It feels like getting cut for real and you have a lovely little line to show off where you would have bled to death in a real situation!


    As an semi-humourous aside, it is proven in a court of law that Chuck Norris is deadlier than a gun at 10 feet (no, really - this is actually true!)
  9. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/24/2007 8:36pm

    supporting member
     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kickcatcher

    Seriously, how inept does a gun armed attacker have to be to let you disarm them????? Pressure test to see: get a spud gun or a cap gun... something that can go "bang" if the trigger is pulled. Try those disarms ... the attacker's role is to simulate a 'stick up' in whatever way they find natural and either run away or shoot the defender (pre-pick but don't tell) if the the defender attempts any silly business. I've never triedthat specific drill (cos I just made it up) but I know where my money would be. And that's the key to pressure testing, although it is a sliding scale of resistance at some point the extent of resistance should be such that almost any defence will fail. All techniques have a natural limit, contextual if nothing else. And it's worth finding out what those limits are in training rather than for real.

    My 0.2p
    The problem with this, I would think, is that most pistol disarms applied at full force and speed are likely to injure the trigger finger of the person holding the pistol should they succeed. I would NOT want to be the man holding the cap gun and attempting to fire it while the trainee tries to twist it sharply to the right!
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
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  10. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/24/2007 9:45pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin
    The problem with this, I would think, is that most pistol disarms applied at full force and speed are likely to injure the trigger finger of the person holding the pistol should they succeed. I would NOT want to be the man holding the cap gun and attempting to fire it while the trainee tries to twist it sharply to the right!
    Therein, albeit indirectly, lies the fundamental problem with gun disarms. The so-called "pressure tests" we see on Youtube are contrived to give the defender a chance. Here's another pressure test idea: go to paintball unarmed, and try taking people out without getting shot. Only an idiot would try that because the result is so obvious and unpleasant, yet people go to dojos to practice giving gun armed aggressors Chinese burns.

    It's one of the ironies of current niche-marketed-RBSDs that supposedly cover more/better than mainstream self-defence clubs; is there such a thing as realistic gun disarms???
    Last edited by Fantasy Warrior; 7/24/2007 9:51pm at .
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
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