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  1. kiaiki is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2007 5:51am


     Style: Aikido Ceteris Paribus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, resisiting opponent is 'pressure' designed to develop realistic skills and tactics, but I always thought there was an element of psychological 'pressure' that resistance brings which helps us gain confidence for competition/fighting. Maybe that's just my take on it.:)
  2. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2007 8:14am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As far as I can tell, Geoff Thompson's stuff is like MMA training but modified to make it more 'street like' in the following ways :-

    1) Very short single rounds so nobody 'paces' their fighting, it's all about explosiveness.

    2) Everything starts at 'somebody getting in your face' distance.

    3) They encourage people to roleplay and yell abuse at each other as psychological preparation.

    4) He advices people to descalate and avoid where possible and gives some 'rules of thumb' to help you decide quickly whether you need to fight, and once you've made that decision, encourages pre-emptive sucker punching.

    Would that be a fair characterisation Kickcatcher ?
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  3. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2007 8:15am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This page purports to give his martial arts CV. I remember reading one of his books, and he started out in (and won his first street fights with) shotokan karate (which was trained with hard contact and tough physical conditioning).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Thompson
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  4. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2007 8:58am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    He has taught all over the world, including in the U.S.A. for Chuck Norris.
    Clearly, Geoff Thompson is beyond reproach. Thread over.
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  5. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Misguided style basher

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2007 10:08am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah let's not ride his nuts too much but his "animal day" pressure testing is pretty much akin to the "sports training" approach applied self-defence.

    Whereas more and more stuff that RBSDers are calling "pressure testing" when they put their stuff out there really isn't realistic/high pressure or testing. It's the same old lame "TMA" training drills but whilst wearing paramilitary kit.
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
  6. Rubberduck is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/22/2007 11:59am


     Style: Savate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And how much pressure there is, when people start giggling when attacker does his stuff. As in first video, and I have witnessed this in real life. Compliant drill with cussing thrown in, and people laugh. Real pressure there, right.
  7. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/23/2007 4:15am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rubberduck
    And how much pressure there is, when people start giggling when attacker does his stuff. As in first video, and I have witnessed this in real life. Compliant drill with cussing thrown in, and people laugh. Real pressure there, right.
    Yeah I noticed the giggling in the first video. They look like schoolgirls playing skipping rope, and the training is probably just as useful.
  8. Arhetton is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/23/2007 8:41am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Overall I agree with the intent of the thread but I think the raised points are not very legitimate.

    I'll start with something trivial :)

    I laugh in training all the time, including when I am wrestling. I am usually laughing at myself when I stuff something up, but people always seem to take it the wrong way (as if I am laughing at them). Having fun or laughing I don't see as a problem during training. If there is the intent of creating a stressful environment then enjoying what you are doing and laughing probably needs to take a break for a few minutes (as in a pressure testing class).

    As for complaining about available vids on youtube... Yee gods man, its the internet. There is alot of **** on the internet.

    I think the video is innappropriately labelled. I do think it looks like a drill, not random sparring. They are repeating positions and attacks. I think you need to see more of the class. I wasn't particularly impressed with the drill but I don't know much about how to train that stuff so I won't be too harsh on their drill. Can someone point out a few basic features of what they were doing wrong (I thought the ground attack looked funny lol).

    Complacency is a legitimate talking point, but it happens in BJJ too. When someone is training with you it is not at 100%. They do not fully resist the armbar and you do not apply it at full force, it is approximates, you are still careful not to hurt one another. Wrestling is closer to full force, but still not at maximum performance.

    I am new but my understanding is that the training is in cycles.

    You train in a low performance environment (techniques or drills) followed by consistent free form wrestling (moderate performance) and this is supplemented with occasional external competition ('peak' performance). This cycle is what builds skill. If you spend all of your time trying to compete at maximum performance I don't think that works. Likewise leaving any part of the cycle out leaves you with a skill gap.

    Personally the things I dislike about RBSD are...

    1) The people I have met seem to think this will transform them into a special forces navy seal nuclear bomb disarming terrorist fighter or something. This is the RBSD larp factor. The role playing is that of the 'combat specialist' or the 'dangerous hand to hand fighter'. There is an RBSD class on right after my BJJ class and I swear every time I leave the class people are smirking and I've heard the occasional laughter or comment directed towards the style while we are on the mat. I used to be biased like this though under 'kung fu' so I try to ignore it. I think the RBSD delusion is more powerful (dirty fighting, eye gouging, groin punching etc etc).

    the 'I'm Batman' factor.

    2) I'm sure if people look up the relevant crime facts in their area they will see there is more chance of being killed in an aeroplane accident, in a car accident, being bitten by a poisenous snake or killed by a dog or some random **** like that. Why would you devote so much of your personal time to something thats probably not going to ever affect you? I think there is a level of uneccessary paranoia related to this.

    3) No competition part of cycle. Never get to test skills at peak performance levels and therefore do not find which skills are foolproof and which are less high percentage moves. I think part of the problem for this is that RBSD includes massive amounts of standup technique and people are unwilling to hit each other in the head (I understand. But if you cant be bothered... why bother?).

    So those are my points.
    - Larping
    - Not really something to worry about
    - No environment for testing (competition etc).

    Is there good RBSD out there? - I bet there is.

    I'm tired now so I'll just leave this post up (getting late) but I didn't quite make it as clear as I wanted. Feel free to rip it apart lol.



    Gotta protect yourself peoples!!!
    Last edited by Arhetton; 7/23/2007 9:00am at .
  9. Rubberduck is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/23/2007 1:18pm


     Style: Savate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just for the record, neither do I have problem with having fun on training. It only irks me when it takes over making moves work, and breaks concentration. But this I see more in "fitness" (insert art) classes.:new_all_c
  10. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/23/2007 6:03pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ahetton, you make some excellent points, I pretty much agree, especially about the LARP factor of much RBSD. Compare the latter vid I posted of Geoff Thompson and his guys; it includes short sections showing their pressure testing. No paramilitary kit involved, and good old heavy contact drilling that gets rid of the invincibility LARP factor (IMO). Also I think in one section it's Geoff himself getting the worse of an attempted throw (wearing red sweatrshirt - is that him???). -that's what all instructors ought to do; get down and spar/pressure test/roll with the rest. No egos.

    Anyway, enough nut riding, back to your comments about the videos in the first post.

    I agree that they are mislabelled on Youtue - but I don't think it'sa typo because the rest of the description is quite specific in both cases. That's what these groups call pressure testing. The question is, who are they fooling; themselves or their students??? You can imagine one of those students going home thinking "yeah, these tehniques work under pressure, I just proved it". No you didn't, you just proved that if your mates prestend to attack you but want you to succeed in defending against them you will.

    As for techniques I wouldn't want to presume any authority but I'd suggest that any of the techniques employed were grossly UNREALISTIC. If they were really pressure testing them they'd know that. I saw successive wrist lock gun disarms - yeah right. Kicking a blade out of someone's hand a second after they draw it... yeah right. kicking someone off you from that sort of guard position (and never attempting full guard and/or to smother the strikes????), yeah right. At one point the defender actually walks onto the knife weilding attacker in order to effect a disarm... the 'attacker' waits to be disarmed.

    In pressure testing surely the "attacker" should act in a determined and realistic manner, not do a lemon impression.

    Seriously, how inept does a gun armed attacker have to be to let you disarm them????? Pressure test to see: get a spud gun or a cap gun... something that can go "bang" if the trigger is pulled. Try those disarms ... the attacker's role is to simulate a 'stick up' in whatever way they find natural and either run away or shoot the defender (pre-pick but don't tell) if the the defender attempts any silly business. I've never triedthat specific drill (cos I just made it up) but I know where my money would be. And that's the key to pressure testing, although it is a sliding scale of resistance at some point the extent of resistance should be such that almost any defence will fail. All techniques have a natural limit, contextual if nothing else. And it's worth finding out what those limits are in training rather than for real.

    My 0.2p
    Last edited by Fantasy Warrior; 7/23/2007 6:11pm at .
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
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