233515 Bullies, 3613 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 41 to 50 of 50
Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Tom Kagan is offline
    Tom Kagan's Avatar

    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New York, NY USA
    Posts
    5,602

    Posted On:
    7/07/2009 2:56pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Styygens View Post
    Given the level of attention this topic has had in MAP and Martial Talk, I'm very surprised it hasn't generated more discussion here on Bullshido. I've been watching for a couple of days now, and there's been no action. What gives?
    Maybe the reason for your surprise is because you don't seem to see a difference between here and the other sites?


    Rumor has it that one of our senior members actually attended the seminar. It is possible he might actually write a review sometime before the next Ninja lineage war breaks out.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  2. Styygens is offline
    Styygens's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Baltimore, Maryland
    Posts
    2,171

    Posted On:
    7/07/2009 4:55pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    Maybe the reason for your surprise is because you don't seem to see a difference between here and the other sites?


    Rumor has it that one of our senior members actually attended the seminar. It is possible he might actually write a review sometime before the next Ninja lineage war breaks out.
    The reason for my surprise is that I DO see a difference between this site and the others. Elsewhere I see a "lineage war" that consists of flames, ad hominem attacks, and a lot of trash talk that generally obscures the points. Here -- well, okay, when the "noise-to-signal" ratio is high I sometimes see that -- here I expect a more rational analysis of the available evidence for claims.

    Outrageous claims demand some pretty spectacular evidence. If two guys appear claiming they have the Real Ninjutsu, that's a pretty outrageous claim. I expected to see more discussion on a controversial issue. I was especially surprised because the available evidence is so scant right now.

    I do see two other significant differences...

    First, there's a certain degree of care about investigating wild claims. From what you're saying, a Bullshido member is preparing an article. Now that I know that, I look forward to this review and I think it explains why there was not a "knee jerk" reaction in responses.

    Second, I understand there's an emphasis on discussion about effective training over some of the silliness of the general martial arts community. "Ninjas" are almost by definition silliness. The question of who does or does not have the real ninjutsu is probably a sideshow for many here. It's interesting in the way a Bigfoot sighting might be -- it's entertaining for the moment, but not really going to matter in the long run to the way people train. This occurred to me after I posted.

    Still, if hard evidence of bigfoot was uncovered, it would be big news... For the moment, I'll just wait and see what happens next.
  3. futabachan is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Toronto, ON Canada
    Posts
    75

    Posted On:
    7/08/2009 1:36pm


     Style: naginata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Listener View Post
    I am very eager and intensely interested in studying it as well as Traditional Japanese Swordsmanship... the real stuff not the sport! I want to go to Japan to do this and will put years into it, even decades there to get it right.
    As far as the ninja stuff goes, you're not going to find a ninjutsu/ninpo school that is entirely free of controversy. There are, however, quite a few well-documented schools of traditional Japanese sword arts which are still extant. They're generally ninja-free, though Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu contains some espionage-related techniques.

    If you're serious about wanting to go to Japan to study koryu bujutsu (the umbrella term for traditional Japanese arts that predate the Meiji restoration in 1868), you really, really need to read this: http://www.koryu.com/library/dskoss3.html . There's a lot of other good information about koryu arts over at koryu.com, and koryu dojo finders at e-budo.com and kendo-world.com.

    The dojo finders mostly cover North America and Europe; I have no idea what's available in Beijing. Good luck with your search!
  4. Sam Browning is online now

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    9,887

    Posted On:
    7/08/2009 5:46pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams View Post
    I have an unusual job. As part of my job, I research ninjas.

    No, really. It's a long story.

    Anyway, I've recently learned about the claims made by Jinichi Kawakami and I'm interested in them. Kawakami apparently claims to be the 21st lineage holder of the Kouka/Koka/Koga/Kouga/insert romanji here Ryu. Points to note:

    * He apparently is listed as such by the Koga Ninja Museum, but that august authority is, well, not so august. He also apparently donated artifacts to them. Lest one see this as a comparatively bad thing, note that Hatsumi has done the same thing for "his" pet ninja museum in Togakushi.

    * He was apparently featured in a Japanese documentary about ninjutsu. Clips of it, like this: ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjFc2weuo4Y ) are floating around youtube. Wayne Muromoto commented about the documentary and Kawakami in this e-budo post: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost...2&postcount=12

    * The infamous Juan Hombre, who once claimed the Iga museum curator as a teacher, apparently went to visit and train with him. Muromoto mentioned his opinion about this, too. Hombre did, however take pictures of interest, posted here:

    http://groups.msn.com/LasArtesMarcia...ii.msnw?Page=1

    and has a page purporting to represent Kawakami, here:

    http://www.jinichikawakami.com/

    Hombre is totally unreliable as a source, though.

    * Kawakami apparently is a consultant for the Kurondo theatrical ninja performance troupe.

    * Lastly, here's what's apparently his webpage:

    http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~bankeshinobi/navi04.htm

    I'm curious on several fronts. First of all, the guy is, unlike several pretenders, actually Japanese and in Japan at the same time. He met with the dodgy Hombre, but I'm not sure what this means, and it muddies things because others have confused Kawakami with the Iga guy Hombre attached himself to before.

    I've reached the limits of my competence for the simple reason that I can't read Japanese or Spanish. So this is why I'm posting. I think it's relevant because of Juan Hombre, because of historical interest and because hey . . . ninjas. Plus Kawakami himself seems to be taking students now where he didn't in the past.

    Unfortunately, I don't trust anyone from the Takamatsuden to assess this stuff at all, because of their painfully obvious vested interest in being members of the One True Ninja School(s). That includes E-Budo, because E-Budo is partly a club for those guys to play at koryu. Don Roley said that Kawakami is considered a fringe individual and this may be true, but everybody who isn't in the Bujinkan says the same thing about Hatsumi.

    I don't think Jinichi Kawakami will end up being proven a "true ninjutsu teacher," but he might be proven to be "true" in the ballpark of Takamatsuden claimants,w hcih would be interesting.

    So basically, if you can read Japanese and/or Spanish and know more about the whole situation, please add your two cents.
    Could someone please copy Wayne Muromoto's post on e-budo and stick it here? I can't log onto their site for some reason.
  5. Mor Sao is offline
    Mor Sao's Avatar

    Nothing for Show, All for use

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Tampa, Florida
    Posts
    1,656

    Posted On:
    7/08/2009 10:22pm

    supporting member
     Style: Jook Lum South Mantis,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    kawakami s. Several of Kawakami s.'s photos are taken from an old Kendo Nippon article which I recall reading. I also saw a TV documentary on ninjutsu in Japan years ago and it devoted quite a bit of time to Kawakami sensei, as well as to others claiming to teach ninjutsu, including Hatsumi sensei, and a rather odd American in New York City who claimed to have inherited the Koga-ryu by ESP and because he's black and the ninja were as beaten down as blacks and Native American Indians, he claimed mastery b ESP and by similar circumstances. Most of the doc was tongue-in-cheek. Like, "look how silly these people are..."

    ...Except when it came to Kawakami sensei. He seemed kind of scary. Or at least eccentric.

    Kawakami s. at the time only had one student who could bear the training. He worked as a technician in an electronics firm in the Yamato area during the day. He displayed several scrolls and said that he learned the art from a mysterious neighbor and was given the lineage of the Koga-ryu, and he was versed in several other ryu, including, supposedly the Takenouchi-ryu. Not sure about that latter claim.

    He does quite severe training. On his way to work, he toughens his knuckles by pounding on a metal disk with his fists while driving. This practice has resulted in extremely large and disfigured knuckles. He practices fighting by kicking, scratching, punching and head-butting trees in the forest. He eats only brown rice and the simplest of vegetables and unprocessed foods. And at the time, he refused to take on any more students and refused to publish much about his secrets because that's not his idea of ninjutsu. I also had a nice laugh because one of his comments was "There is no such thing as a fat ninja."

    That statement would eliminate a whole lotta people. Some of his training regime seemed way out there, but when he did kata work with his student, he did look pretty good, albeit darned rough.

    My own take is that orthodox budo people in Japan don't quite know what to make of Kawakami s., whether or not his claims are true or not. I think he does engender some respect for not being a money-grubber or an empire builder. He just trains, and according to the Kendo Nippon article and the TV doc, only had one student able to endure his training, and he couldn't care less.

    I have a feeling, however, that Mr. Hombres did not spend the requisite amount of time or training to be truly called the inheritor of Kawakami s.'s mantle, simply due to his self-aggrandizement, which seems to run counter to Kawakami s.'s own style. Just my own two cents' worth.

    --Wayne Muromoto







  6. Sam Browning is online now

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    9,887

    Posted On:
    7/08/2009 11:24pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you Dale. At the time the documentary was shot in 1988, Kawakami had the most spectacular set of calluses on his hand I had ever seen. They did not even look human. He's cut back a lot of that particular conditioning training in the last 10 years, and made a reference at the seminar that being married and older, was the the reasoning for ending it, but he still has very powerful hands.
  7. jason8619 is offline

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    city of angels
    Posts
    1

    Posted On:
    7/26/2009 12:35am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: budo taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not trying to brag or anything, but I was fortunate enough to actually go train with Kawakami Sensei , and his senior student Kiyomoto Sensei at a seminar in New Jersey afew weeks back. From what I had seen first hand, Kawaki Sensei and his student, Kiyomoto Sensei are the REAL DEAL. Long story short, the two gentlemen who were representing the Banke Shinobinoden and the Iga ninja museum, demonstrated and well informed everyone who was present at this seminar regarding the roots of the '53' actual Koka Ryu. Upon completion of the seminar, atleast to me, from everything I obtained from watching and actually participting, Ninjustu isn't just a martial art, one to be used in combat, but, most of all, it is a WAY OF LIFE. These two men who took the time to travel from Japan and to inform those who were present, not only left many questions answered in regards to '53' Koka Ryu, but also, the authentcity of such a discipline that has been hidden from mainstream or and the public for the the past 40 years.
  8. boozec is offline

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    6

    Posted On:
    7/12/2010 2:20pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Dugas View Post
    kawakami s. Several of Kawakami s.'s photos are taken from an old Kendo Nippon article which I recall reading. I also saw a TV documentary on ninjutsu in Japan years ago and it devoted quite a bit of time to Kawakami sensei, as well as to others claiming to teach ninjutsu, including Hatsumi sensei, and a rather odd American in New York City who claimed to have inherited the Koga-ryu by ESP and because he's black and the ninja were as beaten down as blacks and Native American Indians, he claimed mastery b ESP and by similar circumstances. Most of the doc was tongue-in-cheek. Like, "look how silly these people are..."

    ...Except when it came to Kawakami sensei. He seemed kind of scary. Or at least eccentric.

    Kawakami s. at the time only had one student who could bear the training. He worked as a technician in an electronics firm in the Yamato area during the day. He displayed several scrolls and said that he learned the art from a mysterious neighbor and was given the lineage of the Koga-ryu, and he was versed in several other ryu, including, supposedly the Takenouchi-ryu. Not sure about that latter claim.

    He does quite severe training. On his way to work, he toughens his knuckles by pounding on a metal disk with his fists while driving. This practice has resulted in extremely large and disfigured knuckles. He practices fighting by kicking, scratching, punching and head-butting trees in the forest. He eats only brown rice and the simplest of vegetables and unprocessed foods. And at the time, he refused to take on any more students and refused to publish much about his secrets because that's not his idea of ninjutsu. I also had a nice laugh because one of his comments was "There is no such thing as a fat ninja."

    That statement would eliminate a whole lotta people. Some of his training regime seemed way out there, but when he did kata work with his student, he did look pretty good, albeit darned rough.

    My own take is that orthodox budo people in Japan don't quite know what to make of Kawakami s., whether or not his claims are true or not. I think he does engender some respect for not being a money-grubber or an empire builder. He just trains, and according to the Kendo Nippon article and the TV doc, only had one student able to endure his training, and he couldn't care less.

    I have a feeling, however, that Mr. Hombres did not spend the requisite amount of time or training to be truly called the inheritor of Kawakami s.'s mantle, simply due to his self-aggrandizement, which seems to run counter to Kawakami s.'s own style. Just my own two cents' worth.

    --Wayne Muromoto

    Wow.. that's fucking nuts.
  9. Plasma is online now
    Plasma's Avatar

    Bullshido's Greatest Ninja

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    7,128

    Posted On:
    7/13/2010 6:28pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: JJJ/Judo[Nidan] BJJ[Blue]

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jason8619 View Post
    I'm not trying to brag or anything, but I was fortunate enough to actually go train with Kawakami Sensei , and his senior student Kiyomoto Sensei at a seminar in New Jersey afew weeks back. From what I had seen first hand, Kawaki Sensei and his student, Kiyomoto Sensei are the REAL DEAL. Long story short, the two gentlemen who were representing the Banke Shinobinoden and the Iga ninja museum, demonstrated and well informed everyone who was present at this seminar regarding the roots of the '53' actual Koka Ryu. Upon completion of the seminar, atleast to me, from everything I obtained from watching and actually participting, Ninjustu isn't just a martial art, one to be used in combat, but, most of all, it is a WAY OF LIFE. These two men who took the time to travel from Japan and to inform those who were present, not only left many questions answered in regards to '53' Koka Ryu, but also, the authentcity of such a discipline that has been hidden from mainstream or and the public for the the past 40 years.
    Proof they are the "real deal", you know beyond the "he told me in New Jersey".
  10. vaquero de las nalgas is offline
    vaquero de las nalgas's Avatar

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    PHX or thereabouts
    Posts
    844

    Posted On:
    7/14/2010 6:05am


     Style: Hsing I, Bagua, Chi kung

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jason8619 View Post
    Upon completion of the seminar, at least to me, from everything I obtained from watching and actually participting, Ninjustu isn't just a martial art, one to be used in combat, but, most of all, it is a WAY OF LIFE.
    I've researched the majority of material available in English on this subject.

    There are some common misconceptions about ninjutsu.

    Ninja were ( for the most part ) synonymous with Samurai. That is, ninjutsu was practiced by Samurai. The unarmed combat was based on jiujutsu/taijutsu. The weapons were all known to them and practiced by them. Apparently some ninja were known to be early adherents of teppujutsu ( firearms ). The practices that ninja are associated with, such as surveillance, really weren't solely their province either. Any crusty peasant could be utilized to watch roads and listen to rumors.

    It's not until the peace that followed the establishment of the Tokugawa that we find the cult of ninjutsu developing in the popular mind. Some of the legend can be ascribed to popular theatre. I think also, there was some posturing on the part of the military class, as it was becoming passe ( and distasteful ) to be associated with ninja practices. The Iga and Koga clans were trusted with certain castle gates as a reward for service. Allegedly ninja became part of the state apparatus, spying on the citizenry for the government.

    So if you eliminate combat training, you are left with the following skill sets:
    infiltration, intelligence gathering, pyrotechnics, counter intelligence...

    Whoah, hold on there. These would all be considered standard military subjects, especially to any reader of Sun Tzu. What's left?

    Seiko Fujita claimed training in some esoteric subjects, like poison, reading the weather, experiencing certain privations of the body ( starvation, lack of sleep, etc. ). But he refrained from passing this information along, as he saw the ninjutsu lineage as obsolete. Certainly some of it could be misused, i.e. poisons, arson, etc.

    Now most "ninjutsu" being offered today is unarmed/armed combat techniques. There is very little stealthy training, or anything else of an esoteric nature. You would do just as well training in budo or jiujutsu if you are interested in the martial art side of it.

    I haven't heard that the Bujinkan has a hard on for this gentleman, nor that Bujinkan claims to be the single authority on ninjutsu. The fact of the matter is, unless he is passing on some kind of training outside of martial arts, he really isn't bringing anything new to the table. That standard applies to the Booj and other associated Takamatsuden as well. You might as well take up some kind of wilderness survival courses to round out your "ninja" training, because you are more likely to pick up relevant info at REI than you would from ANY of the aforementioned organizations.
    Last edited by vaquero de las nalgas; 7/14/2010 6:14am at .
Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.