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  1. eyebeams is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2007 7:57pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Jinichi Kawakami: The *other* one true ninja soke

    I have an unusual job. As part of my job, I research ninjas.

    No, really. It's a long story.

    Anyway, I've recently learned about the claims made by Jinichi Kawakami and I'm interested in them. Kawakami apparently claims to be the 21st lineage holder of the Kouka/Koka/Koga/Kouga/insert romanji here Ryu. Points to note:

    * He apparently is listed as such by the Koga Ninja Museum, but that august authority is, well, not so august. He also apparently donated artifacts to them. Lest one see this as a comparatively bad thing, note that Hatsumi has done the same thing for "his" pet ninja museum in Togakushi.

    * He was apparently featured in a Japanese documentary about ninjutsu. Clips of it, like this: ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjFc2weuo4Y ) are floating around youtube. Wayne Muromoto commented about the documentary and Kawakami in this e-budo post: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost...2&postcount=12

    * The infamous Juan Hombre, who once claimed the Iga museum curator as a teacher, apparently went to visit and train with him. Muromoto mentioned his opinion about this, too. Hombre did, however take pictures of interest, posted here:

    http://groups.msn.com/LasArtesMarcia...ii.msnw?Page=1

    and has a page purporting to represent Kawakami, here:

    http://www.jinichikawakami.com/

    Hombre is totally unreliable as a source, though.

    * Kawakami apparently is a consultant for the Kurondo theatrical ninja performance troupe.

    * Lastly, here's what's apparently his webpage:

    http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~bankeshinobi/navi04.htm

    I'm curious on several fronts. First of all, the guy is, unlike several pretenders, actually Japanese and in Japan at the same time. He met with the dodgy Hombre, but I'm not sure what this means, and it muddies things because others have confused Kawakami with the Iga guy Hombre attached himself to before.

    I've reached the limits of my competence for the simple reason that I can't read Japanese or Spanish. So this is why I'm posting. I think it's relevant because of Juan Hombre, because of historical interest and because hey . . . ninjas. Plus Kawakami himself seems to be taking students now where he didn't in the past.

    Unfortunately, I don't trust anyone from the Takamatsuden to assess this stuff at all, because of their painfully obvious vested interest in being members of the One True Ninja School(s). That includes E-Budo, because E-Budo is partly a club for those guys to play at koryu. Don Roley said that Kawakami is considered a fringe individual and this may be true, but everybody who isn't in the Bujinkan says the same thing about Hatsumi.

    I don't think Jinichi Kawakami will end up being proven a "true ninjutsu teacher," but he might be proven to be "true" in the ballpark of Takamatsuden claimants,w hcih would be interesting.

    So basically, if you can read Japanese and/or Spanish and know more about the whole situation, please add your two cents.
  2. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 4:15pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maybe this would get a better response if it moved to the JMA forum?
  3. El Neko is offline
    El Neko's Avatar

    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 6:14pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hey, if you need anything translated from spanish, just let me know, I might not give it back right away, but it will be faster than using a dictionary
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Yeah, you're probably right.

    But still, something about having a black guy or a lesbian jump out from behind a garbage can yelling "SURPRISE GONG SAU" at any of your big-named RBSD kooks makes me giggle like a little girl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    There are two kinds of members on MAP:

    1. LARPers/Partial Artists
    2. People who haven't heard about Bullshido.
    The Mighty McClaw to Fox when refusing to fight AnnaT.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Don't fight girls? When are you living, the 1850's? I suppose you think they shouldn't work or vote either.
    Get with the times and punch a chick.
    Wingchundo's response after I called him a "*****"

    Quote Originally Posted by wingchundo View Post
    Hey, I resemble that remark!

    Ok, time for a snappy comeback.... uh...

    OK. Here goes.

    You are what you eat!
  4. eyebeams is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 6:30pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well the Spanish is much less important than the Japanese, especially since Juan Hombre is a dodgy guy. I've reached the end of my competence in researching Jinichi Kawakami and am mainly interested in what he claims, what he teaches and where he stands in Japan. Unfortunately, the people most likely to respond (X-kanners) are pretty untrsutworthy when it comes to this.

    The linked pages in Spanish would be interesting to see translations of. Babelfish/Google is mostly nonsense to me.
  5. El Neko is offline
    El Neko's Avatar

    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

    Join Date
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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 7:09pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I see what I can do about the linked pages
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Yeah, you're probably right.

    But still, something about having a black guy or a lesbian jump out from behind a garbage can yelling "SURPRISE GONG SAU" at any of your big-named RBSD kooks makes me giggle like a little girl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    There are two kinds of members on MAP:

    1. LARPers/Partial Artists
    2. People who haven't heard about Bullshido.
    The Mighty McClaw to Fox when refusing to fight AnnaT.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Don't fight girls? When are you living, the 1850's? I suppose you think they shouldn't work or vote either.
    Get with the times and punch a chick.
    Wingchundo's response after I called him a "*****"

    Quote Originally Posted by wingchundo View Post
    Hey, I resemble that remark!

    Ok, time for a snappy comeback.... uh...

    OK. Here goes.

    You are what you eat!
  6. eyebeams is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,437

    Posted On:
    7/17/2007 7:09pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    [Repost] Jinichi Kawakami: The *other* one true ninja soke

    I moved this from MABS because nobody seemed interested. Maybe the JMA folks can do better.

    I have an unusual job. As part of my job, I research ninjas.

    No, really. It's a long story.

    Anyway, I've recently learned about the claims made by Jinichi Kawakami and I'm interested in them. Kawakami apparently claims to be the 21st lineage holder of the Kouka/Koka/Koga/Kouga/insert romanji here Ryu. Points to note:

    * He apparently is listed as such by the Koga Ninja Museum, but that august authority is, well, not so august. He also apparently donated artifacts to them. Lest one see this as a comparatively bad thing, note that Hatsumi has done the same thing for "his" pet ninja museum in Togakushi.

    * He was apparently featured in a Japanese documentary about ninjutsu. Clips of it, like this: ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjFc2weuo4Y ) are floating around youtube. Wayne Muromoto commented about the documentary and Kawakami in this e-budo post: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost...2&postcount=12

    * The infamous Juan Hombre, who once claimed the Iga museum curator as a teacher, apparently went to visit and train with him. Muromoto mentioned his opinion about this, too. Hombre did, however take pictures of interest, posted here:

    http://groups.msn.com/LasArtesMarcia...ii.msnw?Page=1

    and has a page purporting to represent Kawakami, here:

    http://www.jinichikawakami.com/

    Hombre is totally unreliable as a source, though.

    * Kawakami apparently is a consultant for the Kurondo theatrical ninja performance troupe.

    * Lastly, here's what's apparently his webpage:

    http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~bankeshinobi/navi04.htm

    I'm curious on several fronts. First of all, the guy is, unlike several pretenders, actually Japanese and in Japan at the same time. He met with the dodgy Hombre, but I'm not sure what this means, and it muddies things because others have confused Kawakami with the Iga guy Hombre attached himself to before.

    I've reached the limits of my competence for the simple reason that I can't read Japanese or Spanish. So this is why I'm posting. I think it's relevant because of Juan Hombre, because of historical interest and because hey . . . ninjas. Plus Kawakami himself seems to be taking students now where he didn't in the past.

    Unfortunately, I don't trust anyone from the Takamatsuden to assess this stuff at all, because of their painfully obvious vested interest in being members of the One True Ninja School(s). That includes E-Budo, because E-Budo is partly a club for those guys to play at koryu. Don Roley said that Kawakami is considered a fringe individual and this may be true, but everybody who isn't in the Bujinkan says the same thing about Hatsumi.

    I don't think Jinichi Kawakami will end up being proven a "true ninjutsu teacher," but he might be proven to be "true" in the ballpark of Takamatsuden claimants,w hcih would be interesting.

    So basically, if you can read Japanese and/or Spanish and know more about the whole situation, please add your two cents.
  7. Rubber Tanto is offline

    Registered Member

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    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
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    907

    Posted On:
    7/17/2007 7:56pm


     Style: Bujutsu / Muay Thai / MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On map, you can send a PM to Benkyoka to translate for you. (He's a cool guy, very unbiased, so he'll give you honest feedback if he has the time [he's wife was about to have a baby]) or maybe Shinbushi could tell us what they are saying in those clips.

    The only true test would be to have him fight it out with the x-can sokes in a cage style battle-royale.
  8. eyebeams is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,437

    Posted On:
    7/17/2007 8:18pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rubber Tanto
    On map, you can send a PM to Benkyoka to translate for you. (He's a cool guy, very unbiased, so he'll give you honest feedback if he has the time [he's wife was about to have a baby]) or maybe Shinbushi could tell us what they are saying in those clips.

    The only true test would be to have him fight it out with the x-can sokes in a cage style battle-royale.
    Ask Ben Cole? Cole was a personal student of Hatsumi, a dedicated follower of the party line and categorically untrustworthy when it comes to this kind of thing. Like I said: One of the difficulties is that the people with expertise who are easiest to contact about this are the least trustworthy.
  9. Rubber Tanto is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
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    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    907

    Posted On:
    7/17/2007 11:51pm


     Style: Bujutsu / Muay Thai / MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Ask Ben Cole? Cole was a personal student of Hatsumi, a dedicated follower of the party line and categorically untrustworthy when it comes to this kind of thing. Like I said: One of the difficulties is that the people with expertise who are easiest to contact about this are the least trustworthy.
    Huh!?
    Who said anything about ben COLE? Look at my quote in your one post man.

    I don't like Ben Cole. Ben Cole is all about Ben Cole and how the bujinkan revolves around Ben cole.....

    I said BenKYOKA...thats a different person.
  10. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2007 4:16am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rubber Tanto
    Huh!?
    Who said anything about ben COLE? Look at my quote in your one post man.

    I don't like Ben Cole. Ben Cole is all about Ben Cole and how the bujinkan revolves around Ben cole.....

    I said BenKYOKA...thats a different person.
    I assumed that the username was a pun on Ben Cole's name. Sorry! I haven't been on MAP in a while -- too dumb -- so my account got canned or something. In any event, a search turns up bis involvement in Kutaki.org and all kinds of Bujinkan-ness that I don't want getting involved in this, really.
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