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  1. Torakaka is offline
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    Do you eat breakfast?

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2007 9:46pm

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     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was always taught to pivot for uppercuts as well since, like any other punch, you have to rotate your hips to generate power. I don't really see how you could throw a decent uppercut without having most of your weight on the ball of your foot.
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
      #51
  2. Jack Rusher is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/20/2007 10:25pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Blackshadow
    I was always taught to pivot for uppercuts as well since, like any other punch, you have to rotate your hips to generate power. I don't really see how you could throw a decent uppercut without having most of your weight on the ball of your foot.
    All boxers are taught to stay on the balls of the feet and pivot, myself included.

    The situation I was thinking of is where the guy bobs under a cross and moves to jam me up, trying to clinch. Now that I stand up and shadowbox it out, it's sort of halfway between an uppercut and a shovel hook. The thing that brought it to mind was that the heel drops on the lead leg when I do it.

    Wait. He didn't mean both heels planted, did he?
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
      #52
  3. Upyu is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2007 10:51pm


     Style: Aunkai, Tokyo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand
    If you heel-punch, you can still get some hip-turn...just not as much. Flexibility is restricted. You're also giving up the force added by the back heel pushing off the ground,.
    I think the main misunderstanding is that people thing this "heel" orientation means you push off the ground using the heel. You don't. The bone structure is simply settled down to the heels, allowing it to transmit a force from the ground on up.

    Besides which, the "keeping the heel down" is only for training. Once the "connection" is there you can raise the heel, say if you were going to do a cross, but the weight will still be virtually dropped to the heel. This stuff has to be felt, but there is a substantial difference in the quality of a punch when the weight is allowed to "drop" all the way to the ground. It's not a technique, but rather something that has to be "conditioned" in the body.
      #53
  4. Upyu is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2007 10:53pm


     Style: Aunkai, Tokyo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    All boxers are taught to stay on the balls of the feet and pivot, myself included.

    The situation I was thinking of is where the guy bobs under a cross and moves to jam me up, trying to clinch. Now that I stand up and shadowbox it out, it's sort of halfway between an uppercut and a shovel hook. The thing that brought it to mind was that the heel drops on the lead leg when I do it.

    Wait. He didn't mean both heels planted, did he?
    Both heels planted, sounds stupid, but as a conditioning aid to refine body mechanics it can work wonders.
      #54
  5. Kozma is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2007 3:00am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    football players squat properly, with their weight on their heels

    this doesnt mean you should tackle with your weight on your heels
      #55
  6. PirateJon is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2007 11:00am

    supporting member
     Style: MT/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Upyu
    I think the main misunderstanding is that people thing this "heel" orientation means you push off the ground using the heel. You don't. The bone structure is simply settled down to the heels, allowing it to transmit a force from the ground on up.

    Besides which, the "keeping the heel down" is only for training. Once the "connection" is there you can raise the heel, say if you were going to do a cross, but the weight will still be virtually dropped to the heel. This stuff has to be felt, but there is a substantial difference in the quality of a punch when the weight is allowed to "drop" all the way to the ground. It's not a technique, but rather something that has to be "conditioned" in the body.
    This sounds like some weird doublespeak and I can't begin to understand it.

    How can you drop the weight to the ground via the heels, if the heels aren't touching the ground?
    You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.
      #56
  7. Jack Rusher is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2007 11:29am


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Upyu
    Both heels planted, sounds stupid, but as a conditioning aid to refine body mechanics it can work wonders.
    *Unsubscribe*
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
      #57
  8. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2007 12:01pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The only non- Aiki form jitsu people I expect to understand this are Kyokushin karateka and their offshoots (i.e. me). I used to train a lot of punches from horse stance and front stance. Both in the air and on a shield. You are supposed to switch your hips and drill energy down through your heel when you do this. It really can teach you a lot about mechanics and timing.

    If you do it wrong it feels jarring when you hit a shield if you do it right it feels almost the same as hitting the air. Does this apply directly to striking while moving and fighting on the balls of your feet? I'm not sure. BUT I know it improved my feel for a solid shot.

    The obvious argument is that you can develop the same feel through training the "right" way to hit. Also, I'm sure some people think that stance training and weighting my heels probably made it take longer for me to learn that feel. BUT since I can't unlearn it we may never know.
      #58
  9. PirateJon is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2007 12:47pm

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     Style: MT/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting.

    So since you've done it both ways (giggle) can you relate the 'drill enery down' to the MT/Boxing stance? is it another way to "sit into a punch"?
    You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.
      #59
  10. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2007 12:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hl1978
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...81301858251744

    The above hour long video shows a olympic lifting seminar from Dan John who goes over a number of good positions/exercises to reinforce the fact that if you want to generate the most power, at least in a lifting context, the heel is the best way to go. The postural positions are dead on for power generation.
    What the **** does the postural position required for power-lifting/oly lifting have anything to do with power generation for striking?

    Quote Originally Posted by hl1978
    Olympic lifters are concerned while power generation in the vertical plane,
    Wrong. Olympic lifters are concerned with maximal rep explosive power with their posterior chain. The direction in which their lifts are performed is incidental.

    Quote Originally Posted by hl1978
    while we as strikers are concerned with the horizontal.
    Moreover, they are concerned with the ability to do work over extended period of times, not with maximal explosive power generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by hl1978
    That being said however, the involvement of the legs, and the use of the torso to transmit power via the legs in a connected fashion is no different.
    You are absolutely wrong in this. An oly lifter is concerned with ONE lift at a time, at maximal speed, with the greatest amount of forced generated in the shortest amount of time.

    The positioning of the heels is to maximize that ONE SINGLE REP and to provide the greatest stability to get a highly technical lift, again, in ONE SINGLE REP.

    The foot positioning of a sprinter or jumper, who is concerned with maximum power generated for multiple reps over a period of time (distantly closer to what you'd see in a striker) is far closer than the foot positioning required for a striker. A sprinter or jumper DOES NOT USES HIS HEELS.

    Quote Originally Posted by hl1978
    I use the same thing for my own training and sparring. Particularly the scapula orientation to open the chest, the weight on the heels, hip orientation instead of loading the quads etc.
    Video please.

    Quote Originally Posted by hl1978
    These postura changes are useful, but it takes a lot of conditioning to make it work as well.
    So, have you made them work? Do know of one who makes them work?


    Quote Originally Posted by hl1978
    Why are the lifts irrelevant, because they only go in a vertical plane? The same posture works in a forwards motion as well.
    Big ass, shameless red herring and strawman. He didn't say the lifts are irrelevant. In fact, they are a good way to train for explosive power. That is one argument.

    Using these lifts as justification for your argument in favor of using the heels for striking power, that's quite another.

    You suck at logic and sport science.

    Quote Originally Posted by hl1978
    did you watch the video? Your post was way to quick after mine to have done so.
    Do you realize that such a clip has been seen by many people over the years, that it is a classic?

    Even if no one had ever seen it before, it still does not make up for your faulty logic for proposing using the heels for striking just because lifters do so.

    What will be next? Are you going to suggest colonoscopies for ear infections just because doctors use them to diagnose ulcers and polyps???
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    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
      #60
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