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  1. #21
    JohnnyCache's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What is this bullshit?

    He wasn't punching off of his heel. You need to see a guy's feet to look at the rest of his body and tell where his heel is?

    Also, no, you can't punch good flat footed. SO AND SO might be able to punch harder then SOME OTHER GUY flat footed, but SO AND SO would be able to punch harder if he moved his damn foot.

    Also, if we don't have a rule about mis-applying gross physics to complex models, we should. The gain in foot area is MEANINGLESS compared to the loss of power generation from the calf and quads.

    If you're moving a heavy bag more, it's because you're pushing it, or you couldn't pop a grape before you changed for some other reason.


  2. #22

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    What is this bullshit?

    He wasn't punching off of his heel. You need to see a guy's feet to look at the rest of his body and tell where his heel is?

    Also, no, you can't punch good flat footed. SO AND SO might be able to punch harder then SOME OTHER GUY flat footed, but SO AND SO would be able to punch harder if he moved his damn foot.

    Also, if we don't have a rule about mis-applying gross physics to complex models, we should. The gain in foot area is MEANINGLESS compared to the loss of power generation from the calf and quads.

    If you're moving a heavy bag more, it's because you're pushing it, or you couldn't pop a grape before you changed for some other reason.
    I take it you haven't had much IMA experience? There are a lot of IMA charlitans, but a couple people here on bullshido have gotten to train with the guys I trained with and were impressed, Luan etc.

    Oh I agree about apply this stuff to complex body interactions however as a general rule the more stable you are, the more energy from your technique will go into your opponent.

    When I refer to stablity, I dont mean stable as in a super low stance, but stable as in the head/torso/legs move as one unit, see the following article for more information

    http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...article&id=259.


    If you don't believe me, punch a heavy bag on one foot. what happens? Now punch with both feet on the ground, does the bag for further? Are you less likely to get off balanced by your own punch?

    Does punching from the heel provide better structure (structure being the shape of the body, allowing the skelatal/connective tissue to support the load in addition to the muscles, see the people in africa who carry heavy loads on their heads for an example of "structure", they aren't using muscles to hold that load on their heads) to the body, than from the ball of the foot?

    Well most MA systems say no, I and I think I would say no as well unless you have the rest of your body stabilized as well (most people think they have their bodyweight behind their punchs/kicks but they don't).

  3. #23

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, my current boxing coach has taught me how to throw a variation of the Cross while flat-footed. It's a short-range cross. You rotate into the punch, but rather than pivot the foot up onto the ball of the foot, your foot stays flat and angled. The knee of your rear leg bends and drops towards the floor and you drive your hip and shoulder with the punch. He has shown me an exercise/drill so that you can maintain proper body alignment/structure throughout the punch.

    It's a weird punch, stance-wise. I don't like to use it very much just because it feels so awkward, but it does pack a hell of a lot of power!

  4. #24
    JohnnyCache's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    uhm

    no.

    Yes, there's a huge difference between a biped on two feet and a biped on one foot

    that doesn't translate to a fixed ratio of more foot on the ground equals more power. In fact, a case could be made that the flatter your feet are, the more loss there is from your body as a spring.

    as far as structure goes - I'm not trying to set my opponent on my head, dude.

    Putting your foot flat on the ground isn't just "not taught" in other martial arts - its actively abolished. For a reason. If it produced improvement for you, you've either discovered something COMPLETELY different you need to post videos of, or you couldn't hit at all before and pushing the bag feels better to you.

    There are short punches where you don't move your feet as much or rise as high, yes, but you're not going to find FLATTEN YOUR FEET written on the wall at very many good gyms.

    edit: I will mention that this mostly pertains to the forward foot. I suppose you COULD pack your back leg around however you wanted, but it would probably slow your footwork and shorten your reach to keep it flat.
    Last edited by JohnnyCache; 7/18/2007 9:15am at .


  5. #25

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    uhm

    no.

    Yes, there's a huge difference between a biped on two feet and a biped on one foot

    that doesn't translate to a fixed ratio of more foot on the ground equals more power. In fact, a case could be made that the flatter your feet are, the more loss there is from your body as a spring.

    as far as structure goes - I'm not trying to set my opponent on my head, dude.

    Putting your foot flat on the ground isn't just "not taught" in other martial arts - its actively abolished. For a reason. If it produced improvement for you, you've either discovered something COMPLETELY different you need to post videos of, or you couldn't hit at all before and pushing the bag feels better to you.

    There are short punches where you don't move your feet as much or rise as high, yes, but you're not going to find FLATTEN YOUR FEET written on the wall at very many good gyms.

    edit: I will mention that this mostly pertains to the forward foot. I suppose you COULD pack your back leg around however you wanted, but it would probably slow your footwork and shorten your reach to keep it flat.

    Sure, I can post video.

    I am referring to the rear foot being flat, not the front.

    The 1 vs 2 foot thing is simply to point out the role of stability in striking. This is someting I have been playing with more and more after my last training trip in japan. It is completely counterintuitive to my own experiences.

    the following video is kicking

    watch the guy in all black around the one minute mark

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=nk-HLVl9LNo

    he is the one explaining how strucutre works, and how simply kicking harder doesnt present the same results. he isnt simply pushing, he just has more bodyweight in the kick via structure. the kicks without it just slap the surface, while the ones with it, push the other guy back and disrupt his balance.

    see around 2:10 how the guy holding the shields body is effected
    Last edited by hl1978; 7/18/2007 9:28am at . Reason: i can't spell

  6. #26

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The guy in black is just driving forward more, whereas the other guy is falling away too much. With that said, his form is still not very good.

  7. #27
    JohnnyCache's Avatar
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    oh man teach me the power of the internal so that I too will be able to move a guy half my size with a push kick to the knee

    because I can't do that if I pivot my foot.

    I thought about this thread all day at work, actually, and I want to qualify some of what I said before - there are many times when I've hit off a flat front foot, when it was just the right time or when backing up or when my foot was where I needed to be and I brought my body around to it

    There are also times when a foot is nearly planted or planted because technique degrades in a fight, or becuase timing and circumstance interrupt before you rise off your heel, but even in those circumstances, you should feel greater pressure in the balls of your feet.

    A good punch is like a waveform - it travels outward from your hips, down your legs to the ground and out your arm to the opponent. If you properly push and pivot with your legs, you are speeding the force back up your legs and into your arm - for a harder hit.



    The reason the guy in your video has better "structure" in the video is because he does the push kick at 2:10 well and the earlier round kicks are slappy and pulled from underneath.

    He has proper straight line geometry in the push kick - he does not in his round kick, nor is he using the alternate, ballistic geometry seen in thai kicking. Note how the push kick moves straight toward its target while the round kicks 'arc' (not refering to the outside motion vs the forward motion here but rather the actual path of the hitting tool)

    Power in striking doesn't come from structure - it comes from a compromise of, followed by a transition to structure. You should release structure to allow your body to transmit force, then have already hit your target just before you find structure again - the seeking of a complete geometry brings the hammer down.

    edit: as far as the back foot goes, I'm still working out where to keep it for MMA. When I just want to hit hard, there isn't much weight on it, but that's a good way to end up under someone, isn't it? To tell you the truth, usually my back foot is stepping up during punching so that pressure keeps coming forward - so that it can be the next front foot, essentially.
    Last edited by JohnnyCache; 7/19/2007 12:31am at .


  8. #28
    bobyclumsyninja's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache

    the seeking of a complete geometry brings the hammer down.
    :sad7::5oh:

    I don't know about this, but good form (punch with hip, push from nose,don't telegraph) is pretty well worked out, when it comes to throwing hands...boxing. If someone's not on the balls of their feet, with the knees bent...they cant easily punch hard...and won't have good balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satori
    In Shito-Ryu, we would get smacked if our heel wasn't firmly planted on the ground during punches.
    As such, it tends to create a "Punching in a Box" feeling concerning range.
    which, I hope, is why you study BJJ now. Range is key..for me, anything that restricts the use of range...is a no. A right cross is a power punch because of the hip turn...not just the muscle in the arm...not isolating the balls of the feet is so basic, it could be some of the traditional "strikers" got their asses handed to them in the early ufc years. Now, with the sprawl in full use (and better more realistic footwork), we at least have a chance.
    Last edited by WhiteShark; 7/19/2007 10:10am at .

  9. #29
    SuperGuido's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Boby- Yes, I've sworn off Japanese Karate for good.

    In fact, I learned so many bad habits from Shito Ryu that I'm essentially screwed when it comes to sparring and stand-up.

    Hence, I roll around with big sweaty men for my "Combat" and play around with CMA for "Fun".

  10. #30
    bobyclumsyninja's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm sure you're better having moved on....for standup, watch some Ernesto Hoost highlights and fights....It's a clinic with that guy. That alone will help you...I'm hyper, so I naturally bounce on the balls of my feet, when I'm standing around...but I still struggle with my footwork. Keep sparring, is the best thing. If you're at all like me, you'll learn good habits by eating shots because of bad ones.

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