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  1. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/17/2007 7:25am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    "Real" Hapkido?

    I've trained in Hapkido from two different organizations:

    * An affiliate of Hwang In-Shek (Eagle Hapkido, Toronto)

    * Moo Gong Kwan Hapkido with Choi Kwang-Suk (Peterborough, ON)

    Both of them did progressive training to sparring and had the following features:

    * Aiki-style wristlocks.
    * Kicks in big circles -- nothing like taekwondo. No chambering.
    * Committed punches and strikes with a heavy emphasis on relaxation.

    Moo Gong Kwan had a couple of forms, too. That school flatly denied there was any legitimate Hapkido in Toronto and recommended a local Kuk Sool school there.

    Now I'm posting this because I keep reading about Hapkido around here being described as a TKD/Aiki hybrid, but that wasn't my experience at all. The hand and foot techniques were totally different. So I have a couple of questions:

    1) Is it common for folks to teach Hapkido with TKD-style kicking and punching?

    2) Where did the big, circular, relaxed Hapkido strikes come from?
  2. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/17/2007 10:59am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not an expert on KMAs by any stretch, but from what I've seen of HKD schools (seen some in Eastern and in Western Canada), the answer to your first question would be "yes". These are differences on degree of emphasis from school to school, though.

    For the second question, you are doubtless aware that "hap" is simply the Korean translation of the Japanese "ai", and--unless I'm mistaken--both are written using the same Chinese character. This is also why that cute little squeak called "kiai" in Nihongo is called "kihap" in Hangul. You can find written histories which claim that the founder of Hapkido was either a student of Ueshiba, or a student of Ueshiba's jujitsu teacher (daito-ryu jujitsu?).

    The big circular strikes you referred to, I didn't see a lot of in the HKD schools I observed; rather, lots of sweeping motions and the TKD-looking strikes you mentioned. Maybe somebody's trying to formulate some kind of middle ground, technique-wise, between Aikido's big-circle eat-my-biceps arm sweeps and the more linear stuff that TKD copped from Shotokan. As for the big circular kicks, while TKD has things like wheel-kicks, somebody in HKD may be trying to formulate 'leg versions' of those big circular arm-sweeps used in Aikido. Meshes with the oft-stated KMA line of "we're SO different from JMA because of all our use of the legs".

    It's not an old art, HKD, so there may not be a lot of established...well, anything, really. That's not necessarily a bad sign: it leaves room for adaptation...unlike some MAs which are so "established"--so set in their ways--that they've become mummified.
  3. saipher is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/31/2007 1:23pm


     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A lot of TKD schools add joint locks, breakfalls, throws/rolls, weapons and call it Hapkido. So that causes some confusion. I never learned crescent, back, twist kicks while taking TKD as a kid.

    I think it's generally agreed Hapkido has roots in daito-ryu. Choi Yong-sul claimed to have studied under Takeda in Japan. Choi's students also had backgrounds in Japanese arts like judo - hence the throwing techniques. Ironically, the Chinese characters for Hapkido and Aikido are the same (according to wiki): 合気道 I guess both mean "Way of Coordinated Power/Energy", yet HKD is the more agressive art.

    Point being that HKD is an adaptive art, and either creates, develops or borrows techniques from other MAs. Hence, the locks, throws, breakfalls, weapons, breathing exercises, and grappling (some schools).

    I'm not sure what kind of circular strikes you're refering to though. I could speculate how circular knife and ridge hand strikes were adapted from the rigid versions in TKD.
  4. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/31/2007 1:56pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Eyebeams, I did HKD as a kid. It definitely was TKD/generic KMA type punches and kicks combined with Aikido like standing wristlocks and throws. They also claimed to teach Tang Soo Do, however, so that might explain the striking style they had.

    I'm more interested in something else you said, though. You mentioned a HKD style called Moo Gong Kwan. The Korean TKD "GM" that I received my BB from, a Yong Yun Cho, also claimed to teach a style called Mu Gong Kwon (his spelling). He claimed to have developed this style himself. It seemed to have some grappling similar to HKD, striking that was more circular and emphasized deflection in defense. This guy had previously studied an art called Sun Moo Do and I always assumed that his Mu Gong Kwon was simply a modified version of Sun Moo Do.

    This is the first time I have ever heard of anything that sounded like it.
  5. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/31/2007 1:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One more thing...

    An affiliate of Hwang In-Shek
    Is that just a different romanization for Wang In Sik, the HKD master who starred in several Jackie Chan movies?
  6. bradtacs is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/31/2007 4:49pm


     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W.
    One more thing...



    Is that just a different romanization for Wang In Sik, the HKD master who starred in several Jackie Chan movies?
    If I can jump in, yes it is the same guy.

    I personally have not trained directly with GM Hwang but my instructor here in Toronto trained with him for a number of years. Really his personal style of striking is a whole different beast than almost any other HKD lineages out there. Very circular basis lots of relaxed power-generation and dynamic whip like motion.

    I am not too familar with, Moo Gong Kwan.

    Eyebeams are you someone i know from East West?
    Last edited by bradtacs; 8/01/2007 10:08am at .
  7. saipher is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/31/2007 5:03pm


     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hmm. Are y'all refering to this Mu Gong Kwan?

    US Hapki Assoc
    http://www.ushapki.com/pages/about_g...ster_gagne.php

    It looks like GM Gagne trained under Choi Kwang Suk.
  8. bradtacs is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2007 9:21am


     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would say that any school teaching Hapkido forms is not a group to take seriously, Hapkido has never taught forms.

    It is my understanding that a lot of the more flowing and loose style of Hapkido striking we do at our school gets its root from the Korean folk game of Taekkyon. The punching utilizes the same power generation and rhythm ideas meshed with a western boxing style of delivery. IMHO anyone who sees this style of striking would not mistake it for TKD it really has a very different flow and energy to it. It also fits into the circular root of Hapkido a lot better than the very linear striking found in TKD.

    I don't know too many specifics about the history of Taekkyon nor can I speak to it's legitimacy but judging from this explanation of the way their kicking works I can say it does sound like it has a a lot of similarities to our kicking style. All of our kicks naturally unfold from the waist and use the hip flexors or back muscles to kick as opposed to our leg muscles and chambering.

    http://www.taekkyon.or.kr/en/

    Taekkyon powers up the strength with the rhythmical movement from the harmony of knee bends and waist elasticity. And it usually just thrusts the opponents' faces and bodies, or attacks at their legs to bring them down. It also pull or push the opponents' legs to bring them down when attacked with kicks. But during a match, hitting on the vital parts and attacks on purpose of damaging is strictly prohibited.
    Last edited by bradtacs; 8/01/2007 12:02pm at .
  9. mobydaddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2007 2:20pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Check out the taekkyon demo thread for some very cool clips of taekkyon competitions.

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57286


    ...and anyone that says that master Hwang isn't teaching "legitimate HKD" has lost their tiny minds. (Full disclosure: I do not train, nor ever have trained at Eagle)
  10. bradtacs is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2007 2:42pm


     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting, after seeing that first video there I would say that I can see a pretty direct correlation between that style of kicking and what we do, even the footwork circling back back and forth.

    Of course these guys are wearing silly outfits are WAY more flowery and dancelike in their execution but I would say I can see the root movements are very similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by mobydaddy
    Check out the taekkyon demo thread for some very cool clips of taekkyon competitions.

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57286


    ...and anyone that says that master Hwang isn't teaching "legitimate HKD" has lost their tiny minds. (Full disclosure: I do not train, nor ever have trained at Eagle)
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