Legs too short to triangle, alternatives?

**bitparity** · Posted On: 7/13/2007 2:28pm

Yea what i've been doing lately is grabbing my pant sleeve with my left hand and there's plenty of pressure to force a tap there even without locking it behind my knee, but the worry is always what if I'm not wearing a gi, and also that leaves me with an arm tied down holding the lock (but maybe that's not a bad thing if the other guy is about to tap).

And honestly, losing weight won't really help me. My legs are all muscle. Big burly muscles. I'd have to lose that muscle in order to thin up enough to do a triangle without having to pull on my pant sleeve or leg

**Beatdown Richie** · Posted On: 7/13/2007 3:16pm

There's a sloppy, but brutal alternative if you can't get the triangle closed properly:

Get into the approximate triangle position - one arm and head between your legs. Cross your ankles above his head. Reach around your legs with your arms, grasp your hands behind your knees. Squeeze the knees, extend your feet.

Use this only as a fallback if you really need to win, not as an excuse to stop working on a proper triangle!

***jnp*** · Posted On: 7/14/2007 12:03am

I have short legs myself. I was basically unable to pull off a solid triangle my first two years of training until a brown belt showed me a few tips. Now it's probably my strongest sub while in the guard.

First, check your angle when applying the triangle. When you have short legs, it's usually beneficial to have even more of an angle than most people need. By this I mean if the centerline from your head to your feet isn't OUTSIDE of the forty-five degree angle formed by a line drawn from his head to his shoulder, then you probably don't have good position for the sub.

The old school way to correct this while sparring is to grab the ankle behind his head with an overhand grip, (DO NOT grab your toes) first, then release the figure four and push off on his same side hip with your other foot in order to get outside that forty-five degree angle previously mentioned.

edit: Keep his head low by pulling down with your hand on your ankle while doing this or he will posture up and escape.

Second, the angle helps with moving your foot, the one behind his head, till it's practically touching the far side of his head, almost to his far ear. This should allow you to open that same knee downward toward his lower back till there is a small triangle of open space between his head and the back side of your knee joint. You should then be able to lock the proper figure four if you follow these steps because the increased angle and 'downward knee' help you trap the smallest amount of neck and arm possible while still retaining good choke mechanics. This proved to be the key that led to my increase in success with regards to the triangle.

***Cassius*** · Posted On: 7/14/2007 1:36pm

Originally Posted by jnp

The old school way to correct this while sparring is to grab the ankle behind his head with an overhand grip, (DO NOT grab your toes) first, then release the figure four and push off on his same side hip with your other foot in order to get outside that forty-five degree angle previously mentioned.

I agree with every single point you make, but have a question about this. Recently, I've found that I have more success cinching the triangle if I adjust it by curling my abs up, hooking around my opponent's neck with one arm, and pulling from the side of my foot instead of the top of my shin with the other. If I'm having a really good night, being curled up into a ball of sorts allows me to spin to the side to get a much better angle on my opponent while I'm doing all this, too. So basically, I'm going against the old school advice on this, but I only started adjusting that way after watching Shinya Aoki do something like it, then stealing some ideas from Eddie Bravo on my own.

I've talked to my coach about it before, and he seems to think it's fine, but I thought I'd share this minor detail with you anyway. Any thoughts?

***jnp*** · Posted On: 7/14/2007 2:54pm

Originally Posted by Cassius

I agree with every single point you make, but have a question about this. Recently, I've found that I have more success cinching the triangle if I adjust it by curling my abs up, hooking around my opponent's neck with one arm, and pulling from the side of my foot instead of the top of my shin with the other. If I'm having a really good night, being curled up into a ball of sorts allows me to spin to the side to get a much better angle on my opponent while I'm doing all this, too. So basically, I'm going against the old school advice on this, but I only started adjusting that way after watching Shinya Aoki do something like it, then stealing some ideas from Eddie Bravo on my own.

I've talked to my coach about it before, and he seems to think it's fine, but I thought I'd share this minor detail with you anyway. Any thoughts?

Old school is not the only way. I frequently hook the neck with my arm as well.

In an explanation like mine above, I try to leave out my stylistic details and stick to the basics. Plus I imagine your coach knows more than I do.

One note: Last night I changed 'slide the foot behind neck as close to the far side of his head as possible to make the triangle of space' to 'slide the the foot toward his far ear and open the same knee downward across his back to make the triangle of space'. You can obtain the triangle of space between the back of your knee and his head either way, but I think moving the knee downward on his back is a little bit harder to pull off.

***Cassius*** · Posted On: 7/14/2007 8:28pm

Originally Posted by jnp

Old school is not the only way. I frequently hook the neck with my arm as well.

In an explanation like mine above, I try to leave out my stylistic details and stick to the basics. Plus I imagine your coach knows more than I do.

One note: Last night I changed 'slide the foot behind neck as close to the far side of his head as possible to make the triangle of space' to 'slide the the foot toward his far ear and open the same knee downward across his back to make the triangle of space'. You can obtain the triangle of space between the back of your knee and his head either way, but I think moving the knee downward on his back is a little bit harder to pull off.

There's definitely more than one way to skin a cat, I was just throwing my two cents in, as I have medium/shortish legs for my height, and weigh about as much as this guy does (except I'm 6'1"). Also, I might pare out the useful parts of this thread and put them back into DHS.