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[Ke?poFist]

Hrmm....Macho you have literally made me tap my cheek.

In rebuttal I'll say this...BJJ, Judo, Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and nearly every other combat sport has evolved over time. BUT they have evolved within the confines of their expertise and/or sport. Kempo is not a sport, which leaves it on ambiguous grounds.

Each of the arts I've listed are the styles that most people think to train in if they want a well rounded out game. They are generally considered the best at what they do. The reason for this is because they acknowledge the range of fighting that they wished to excel at, and have worked at it, trying new things and getting better and better year after year, generation after generation.

This is not to say that every Kickboxing gym or Judo club is better than another school or style that engages in live training in their respective ranges, but I'd say there's a better chance of learning a good clinch game at a Judo club than at a Jujutsu club.

So where does this leave Kempo? Basically you have most Ke?po schools containing curriculums loaded with techniques that simply do not happen in real life unless you are fighting a totally incompetent foe. From technique VIDEO's (gasp!) I've seen, I'd say the same goes for Speakman's system, as he still teaches the AK techniques and drills that he learned.

You enter students of this form of training into sparring and eventually they end up doing a form of sloppy kickboxing mixed with sloppy grappling. Speakman takes it a step further addressing half the problem and now he has students with BJJ grappling basics, combined with a healthy dose of fishhooking, eye gouging and other such untrainable gore and deadly stuff.

I see I'm going off on a tangent so in summation I'd say that while there is no universal standard for what "is" or "isn't" Ke?po, I'd say that utilization of the techniques drilled and practiced day in and day out in class is a must if you wish to be demonstrating the prowess of your specific brand of Ke?po. When I see a guy practice 15 katas, then bang out a bunch of compliant drills where he uses ridge-hands, backfist strikes after dropping levels with a reverse hammer strike, I expect to see that stuff used. If not, then you are not portraying your art or training, and instead are relying on natural ability or crude fundamentals gained solely from the free-sparring sessions you engage in.

[Teh El Macho]

Dude, that was one of the best posts I've seen in quite a while, and it makes me see things from a different perspective.

Hrmm....Macho you have literally made me tap my cheek.

In rebuttal I'll say this...BJJ, Judo, Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and nearly every other combat sport has evolved over time. BUT they have evolved within the confines of their expertise and/or sport. Kempo is not a sport, which leaves it on ambiguous grounds.

Each of the arts I've listed are the styles that most people think to train in if they want a well rounded out game. They are generally considered the best at what they do. The reason for this is because they acknowledge the range of fighting that they wished to excel at, and have worked at it, trying new things and getting better and better year after year, generation after generation.

This is not to say that every Kickboxing gym or Judo club is better than another school or style that engages in live training in their respective ranges, but I'd say there's a better chance of learning a good clinch game at a Judo club than at a Jujutsu club.

So where does this leave Kempo? Basically you have most Ke?po schools containing curriculums loaded with techniques that simply do not happen in real life unless you are fighting a totally incompetent foe. From technique VIDEO's (gasp!) I've seen, I'd say the same goes for Speakman's system, as he still teaches the AK techniques and drills that he learned.

You enter students of this form of training into sparring and eventually they end up doing a form of sloppy kickboxing mixed with sloppy grappling. Speakman takes it a step further addressing half the problem and now he has students with BJJ grappling basics, combined with a healthy dose of fishhooking, eye gouging and other such untrainable gore and deadly stuff.

I see I'm going off on a tangent so in summation I'd say that while there is no universal standard for what "is" or "isn't" Ke?po, I'd say that utilization of the techniques drilled and practiced day in and day out in class is a must if you wish to be demonstrating the prowess of your specific brand of Ke?po. When I see a guy practice 15 katas, then bang out a bunch of compliant drills where he uses ridge-hands, backfist strikes after dropping levels with a reverse hammer strike, I expect to see that stuff used. If not, then you are not portraying your art or training, and instead are relying on natural ability or crude fundamentals gained solely from the free-sparring sessions you engage in.

That last sentence, in particular, that is something I never took into consideration. :confused:

[Ke?poFist]

Dude, that was one of the best posts I've seen in quite a while, and it makes me see things from a different perspective.



That last sentence, in particular, that is something I never took into consideration. :confused:

Thanks, I'm glad. That last bit is something I've encountered a lot. I know a lot of badasses who happen to be badasses training or not. I remember in Kempo, I had a few guys who gained some decent flexibility, speed and conditioning from the training we received. We then would spend an exorbitant amount of time on ridiculous techniques, and once or twice a week we'd spar. Those naturally athletic, coordinated, or most importantly aggressive guys would dominate in sparring, and prove to be quite capable.

These are the same guys who will have the balls to step up and challenge you to prove their styles worth *cough JFS*; often making claims about how their art "works for them," when in reality if they trained at somewhere much more worthwhile, then they'd be freaking monsters rather than merely capable.

I find in my current training, that some of the smallest guys are the most dangerous, and that in itself says a lot to me.

[Frank White]

KempoFist, do you still train kempo?

[Ke?poFist]

KempoFist, do you still train kempo?

I have left my Kempo school, but have found a new home under Kajukenbo with an instructor who is much much more in line with my ideas on training, not to mention can kick my ass pretty handily. I'll be training with him in September, and will continue cross-training between stand-up (most likely boxing or Muay Thai) and of course my BJJ training.

[jtkarate]

is a bit off IMO, because no those Judo players would still not be doing "Jiu-Jitsu" (assuming none of them learned it and were running class) but then they would be engaging in an element of their game that usually isn't as up to par, not to mention that Jiu-Jitsu actually came from Judo, whereas the grappling Speakman utilizes came from blue belt Jiu-Jitsu.

.

Please tell me that was just a typo.

[Teh El Macho]

He's right. Maeda was a mainly Judoka, and his studies in other forms of Jujutsu were brief compared to his training in Judo. Truth to be told, nobody really knows what exactly Maeda taught the Gracies, nor why the system was named Jiu Jitsu.

However, given that he was a Judoka, and that he traveled and fought abroad advertising himself as a Judoka, it is fair to assume he taught them a highly modified version of Judo plus whatever other techniques he must have learned and incorporated into his own personal system during his fights and travels in and outside Japan.

From there, the Gracies would further specialize and refine what they learned (specially under Master Helio, May His Nuts Be Praised), paving the way to the levels where BJJ is today.

[Frank White]

Thanks, I'm glad. That last bit is something I've encountered a lot. I know a lot of badasses who happen to be badasses training or not. I remember in Kempo, I had a few guys who gained some decent flexibility, speed and conditioning from the training we received. We then would spend an exorbitant amount of time on ridiculous techniques, and once or twice a week we'd spar. Those naturally athletic, coordinated, or most importantly aggressive guys would dominate in sparring, and prove to be quite capable.
.

I have given this post and some of your previous posts alot of thought. I'd like to ask, if you are taught to take the 'peices of a puzzle' from your techniques, how would you apply these to sparring or fighting? Would you teach them differentley? And as far as grappling, wouldnt it be better to learn these from a grappling art instead of incorporating them into Kempo? Also, what do you like about Kempo?

Please excuse me if you've already answered these questions, or if I am 'necroing'(?), I've actually been thinking about this alot. I train with badasses, and I'm getting burnt out on techniques.

[krazy kaju]

I think Speakman means his school offers BJJ and MT classes (by legit instructors I hope) in addition to Kempo. I've always heard Speakman's Kempo training is for real, but his compliant drill promo clips are teh :tongue6:

Speakman and his org should concentrate in putting more clips like this and less of the compliant kind:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7ct3UrNPxwc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ct3UrNPxwc

ps... KF sucks at vid tags :tongue3:

Dude, that's the ****.

It looks like they're using Bogu armor in some of those fights... sort of like the Daido Juku crowd.

[krazy kaju]

He's right. Maeda was a mainly Judoka, and his studies in other forms of Jujutsu were brief compared to his training in Judo. Truth to be told, nobody really knows what exactly Maeda taught the Gracies, nor why the system was named Jiu Jitsu.

However, given that he was a Judoka, and that he traveled and fought abroad advertising himself as a Judoka, it is fair to assume he taught them a highly modified version of Judo plus whatever other techniques he must have learned and incorporated into his own personal system during his fights and travels in and outside Japan.

From there, the Gracies would further specialize and refine what they learned (specially under Master Helio, May His Nuts Be Praised), paving the way to the levels where BJJ is today.

From what I understand, Kano ordered some of his Judoka to train with the Fusen-ryu Jujitsu folks who beat Judo in a challenge match between the two schools. Maeda was supposedly one of those Judoka who also studied Fusen-ryu, and who later was one of the first Kosen Judoka.

Furthermore, Maeda was supposedly sent out with other Kosen practitioners by Kano in order to:

1. Have Judo practitioners fight challenge matches with other martial artists and show the 'superiority' of Judo.
2. Clean up the Judo political scene, where Kano wanted to re-emphasize throwing techniques over the ground techniques of Kosen.

Then again, I am not entirely sure about the historical accuracy of this. I gleamed this off of some random site.

On the other hand, wikipedia states in its article about Maeda:

Since its inception, Judo was separated from Jiu-Jitsu in its goals, philosophy, and training regime. Although there was great rivalry among jujutsu teachers, this was more than just Jigoro Kano's ambition to clearly individualize his art. To Kano, judo wasn't solely a martial art, it was also a sport, a method for promoting physical fitness and building character in young people, and, ultimately, a way (Tao) of life.[48][49] Outside Japan, however, this distinction wasn't even hinted. Both arts, jujutsu and judo, were practically unknown. Neither of them were recognized individually. Instead, they were considered the same thing. Even teachers of both arts didn't try too hard to make the distinction clear. For example, Tomita himself appeared in a book called Judo: The Modern School of Jiu-Jitsu. In 1920, when Kano and Hikoishi Aida visited London, they had little trouble convicing two British jujutsu teachers Yukio Tani and Gunji Koizumi, to begin teaching Kodokan judo at their club, the Budokwai.[50] Other examples can be found. Thus, when Maeda and Satake arrived in Brazil, every newspaper announced jiu-jitsu despite both men being Kodokan Judoka. [48]
Gastão Gracie had established business in Pará eventually getting married in Belém. In 1917, his son Carlos Gracie, still a 14 years old boy, watched a demonstration by Maeda at the Teatro da Paz and decided to learn jiu-jitsu. Maeda accepted to teach Carlos who would become a great exponent of the art and ultimately, with his younger brother Hélio Gracie would be the founder of Gracie Jiu Jitsu, modern Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.[51]
In 1921, Gastão Gracie and his family moved to Rio de Janeiro. Carlos, then 17 years old, passed Maeda's teachings on to his brothers Osvaldo, Gastão and Jorge. Hélio was too young and sick at that time to learn the art, and due to medical imposition was prohibited to take part in the training sessions. Despite that, Hélio learned jiu-jitsu by watching his brothers and eventually overcome his health problems and is now considered the founder of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.[51]
It is not known why Maeda chose to call his style of judo "jujutsu". One explanation is that Kodokan judo wasn't as famous in the 1920s as it is today, and that the traditional term for similar Japanese arts was jujutsu. (In Brazil, the transliteration was more often Jiu-Jitsu.) This explanation seems plausible, inasmuch as the Japanese government itself did not officially decide that the correct name for the martial art taught in the Japanese public schools should be "judo" rather than "jujutsu" until 1925.[52]

Dunno, I'd probably go for the wikipedia article.