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  1. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    MADE OF STEEL!

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 9:49am

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shotokan was the first martial art I ever studied. I've done it for about three years, and got up to brown belt.
    The dojo I went to had some vicious, full contact sparring.Much harder than anything I've done with MMA and muay thai guys.
    Of course, getting my brain kicked in kind of made me less eager to spar, so it's not nescessarily a good thing.

    That said, I don't really like Shotokan. While I like my dojo, and visit whenever I'm in town, the style in and of itself has some irritating problems:
    -Point break kumite. While this wasn't the way we fought in the dojo, it was the way we fought in tournaments. I hate, hate, hate point break kumite. Aside from the general problems of pointfighting, having the match stopped every five seconds for the ref to say "not enough" seriously gets on my nerves.
    -No leg kicks is lame. Especially since all the traditional kicks in the kata are thrown below the waist.... but the only kicks allowed in competition are ABOVE the waist.
    -Kata. Specifically, kata for competition. Spending half an hour getting that kukotsu dachi to line up just perfectly so I can score better in the next tournament never struck me as a good way to spend time. This same complaint can be extended to any martial art that does form competitions (excluding wushu, that **** is just fun).
    -All those deep stances and snapping kicks cannot be good for your hips and knees. When I practiced Shotokan, it seemed like their was a constant ache in my lower joints.
  2. Mobious12 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 9:54am


     Style: San Shou, Kickboxing MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I left my shotokan dojo because we simple didnt spar far enough, and sparing was rather limited (although we did not do full out point sparring) all our drills were for kata , little "self defense", and we had full 90 minute classes of kata.

    It was a workout, but total bull when in a fight.


    ^ The above poster is right on with my experiences as well.
  3. jtkarate is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 10:17am


     Style: karate,judo,JJ,Aikido,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Shotokan was the first martial art I ever studied. I've done it for about three years, and got up to brown belt.
    The dojo I went to had some vicious, full contact sparring.Much harder than anything I've done with MMA and muay thai guys.
    Of course, getting my brain kicked in kind of made me less eager to spar, so it's not nescessarily a good thing.
    Whats not a good thing about that . So you went from a TMA that does hard full contact sparring to something that is weaker. According to your statement.


    Point break kumite. While this wasn't the way we fought in the dojo, it was the way we fought in tournaments. I hate, hate, hate point break kumite. Aside from the general problems of pointfighting, having the match stopped every five seconds for the ref to say "not enough" seriously gets on my nerves.
    Agree with you on that.



    -
    Kata. Specifically, kata for competition. Spending half an hour getting that kukotsu dachi to line up just perfectly so I can score better in the next tournament never struck me as a good way to spend time. This same complaint can be extended to any martial art that does form competitions (excluding wushu, that **** is just fun).

    Spending time learning how to do a stance properly is supposed to be done to help you learn how to do the technique correctly and is also used for conditioning. If you try and do mawashi geri for example from an incorrect stance you could end up hurting yourself.


    -
    All those deep stances and snapping kicks cannot be good for your hips and knees. When I practiced Shotokan, it seemed like their was a constant ache in my lower joints.

    See above:4robot:
  4. jtkarate is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 10:18am


     Style: karate,judo,JJ,Aikido,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mobious12
    I left my shotokan dojo because we simple didnt spar far enough, and sparing was rather limited (although we did not do full out point sparring) all our drills were for kata , little "self defense", and we had full 90 minute classes of kata.

    It was a workout, but total bull when in a fight.


    ^ The above poster is right on with my experiences as well.

    Smart move on getting out of there.
  5. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 11:27am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by D Masters
    Of course Karate predates what happened in what i wrote, i was really only focusing on the time when Shotokan itself was 'created'. I don't think much changed as Funakoshi passed down the art that was taught to him by Azato and several others ( i'll get my Funakoshi biography to get the other's names later) because Funakoshi found it extremely disrespectfull and felt he had no place to change anything they had taught him.
    Funakoshi didn't really make the changes, but his teachers did. Funakoshi just didn't teach applications of the moves because he either never learned them or thought the health benefits outweighted the need to teach that stuff to school children.
  6. ironlurker is offline
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    How do Chameleon Circuit?

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 11:40am


     Style: jkd

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    -Point break kumite. While this wasn't the way we fought in the dojo, it was the way we fought in tournaments
    That's really annoying. When I did Uechi this was the case as well. Depending on the dojo and rank you could do a lot of contact, but all the tournaments I remember were point.
  7. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 12:19pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shotokan didn't employ leg kicks? Wow--one learns something new every day. In Kyokushin, at least where I went to do it, legs were among the primary full-con sparring and competition targets for a lot of heel-fronts, shin-kicks, knees and so on, depending on the distance. Why eliminate such an obvious target? (Of course, I always wondered the very same about Kyokushin and punches to the head...)
  8. D Masters is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 4:22pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Traditional Shotokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bosco
    Exactly.

    Okay, fitness work you do on your own. I do too. Nothing wrong with that. I don't like paying people to do pushups, sprint drills or burpees. That I cab do by myself.

    But, how is the fight training. Do you guys do lots of fight technique work ? Do you guys do pad work or hard contact fighting ? If the answer to those questions is "Yes" you have a good club. If not I would find something else.
    It depends on who's directing the class. Sometimes we do fast, hard sparring. Unfortunatly hard sparring tends to incite grudges between immature people, who are trying to 'revenge' eachother every time they are hit. In my opinion, this is not the purpse of sparring. The kind of fighting i think i benefitted the most from, to the point where i could feel the improvement, was slow, deliberate sparring, just testing out what works at certain distances.

    We do a pretty fair bit of technique work. Alot of drilling and... well, the drilling is interesting, we do very odd drilling sometimes. The other day we did some hard drilling on a way you could break an opponent's knees while they are retreating. It's very interesting, but i digress.

    In the first place however, we don't only do fighting in my dojo. I'm not training in Karate just to learn how to fight. If i only wanted fighting, i would go to the boxing gym down the street or perhaps take Muay Thai. I appreciate Karate because it improved my quality of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by urasj
    The problem for some "TMA" is that they don't sparr enough. Many Traditional Karate dojos have same drills / techniques as kyokushin, but kyokushin usually produce better fighters. The reason is probably that kyokushin does alot more hard sparring while TMA might be abit laid back on that area. Ofcourse, should the TMA also have hard sparring, they too would probably produce good fighters.

    Shotokan in Norway is more or less regarded as a "Kata" martial art. Little sparring compared to other TMA styles. From what I understand though, Traditional Karate in Norway seems to put more focus on hard sparring than form what I hear of US Dojos.
    It's true, even in my school. In the beginner classes they don't do much sparring at all.
    I don't doubt that the average Kyokushin fighter could beat the average Shotokan fighter. I'm not here to pretend my Karate is the best. But remember not all people train in martial arts to fight. At my own dojo we do plenty of fighting and we all turn out fine, we try to make it a positive environment where everyone pushes eachother to get better.

    What affilliation is Shotokan of Norway? I guess United States dojos just prefer fighting to the traditional side of martial arts. Back when Funakoshi was first being trained in karate on Okinawa island, they never did any fighting, ever. Only Kata. The same kata over and over and over, he wrote in his book that your master would barely even critique you. When he felt that you had learned the kata to a point of proficiency, he would simply say "Good, now do this one" and that was how they trained.

    Who knows? Martial Arts is strange, what works for some doesen't work for others.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Shotokan was the first martial art I ever studied. I've done it for about three years, and got up to brown belt.
    The dojo I went to had some vicious, full contact sparring.Much harder than anything I've done with MMA and muay thai guys.
    Of course, getting my brain kicked in kind of made me less eager to spar, so it's not nescessarily a good thing.

    That said, I don't really like Shotokan. While I like my dojo, and visit whenever I'm in town, the style in and of itself has some irritating problems:
    -Point break kumite. While this wasn't the way we fought in the dojo, it was the way we fought in tournaments. I hate, hate, hate point break kumite. Aside from the general problems of pointfighting, having the match stopped every five seconds for the ref to say "not enough" seriously gets on my nerves.
    -No leg kicks is lame. Especially since all the traditional kicks in the kata are thrown below the waist.... but the only kicks allowed in competition are ABOVE the waist.
    -Kata. Specifically, kata for competition. Spending half an hour getting that kukotsu dachi to line up just perfectly so I can score better in the next tournament never struck me as a good way to spend time. This same complaint can be extended to any martial art that does form competitions (excluding wushu, that **** is just fun).
    -All those deep stances and snapping kicks cannot be good for your hips and knees. When I practiced Shotokan, it seemed like their was a constant ache in my lower joints.
    "Shotokan was the first martial art I ever studied. I've done it for about three years, and got up to brown belt.
    The dojo I went to had some vicious, full contact sparring.Much harder than anything I've done with MMA and muay thai guys."
    Sounds kinda like my dojo in some ways :)

    I hate point sparring too, everyone in my dojo does. Many of the other dojos train specifically in point sparring, or point break sparring but we don't. The few times we have done point sparring, the matches went on pretty long. They didn't break us up every five seconds.

    As for the 'no leg kicks' thing, we do it in free sparring, lightly, but in tournaments it's a huge no. That's pretty standard in normal tournaments as far as i know though.

    "All those deep stances and snapping kicks cannot be good for your hips and knees. When I practiced Shotokan, it seemed like their was a constant ache in my lower joints."
    If you're in pain from doing low stances, you might not be doing it correctly. After a class i feel completely loostened up and not in pain at all... and as for the snapping kicks, i had knee problems for a while because i was snapping some of my kicks, after being corrected on to kick through all the time instead of snapping back, it stopped happening.
    At my dojo we have a big focus on preserving our bodies for the future.

    Sorry to hear that the tournament system killed shotokan for you :(
    It happens sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mobious12
    I left my shotokan dojo because we simple didnt spar far enough, and sparing was rather limited (although we did not do full out point sparring) all our drills were for kata , little "self defense", and we had full 90 minute classes of kata.

    It was a workout, but total bull when in a fight.


    ^ The above poster is right on with my experiences as well.
    That's really unfortunate. I'm sorry to hear that you got set up in a sub-par dojo.

    Yeah, kata is some good cardio though. Good for conditioning.

    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra
    Funakoshi didn't really make the changes, but his teachers did. Funakoshi just didn't teach applications of the moves because he either never learned them or thought the health benefits outweighted the need to teach that stuff to school children.
    I never said he made any changes, i said he felt it was wrong to make them.
    How do you know Funakoshi didn't teach applications for those reasons?
    Also, as far as i know, he didn't teach Karate to schoolchildren. He taught it to young men from all walks of life.
    Last edited by D Masters; 7/08/2007 4:36pm at .
  9. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 7:35pm

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jtkarate
    Whats not a good thing about that . So you went from a TMA that does hard full contact sparring to something that is weaker. According to your statement.
    Because as much some people being hook kicked full force in the base of the skull, it kind of takes away my desire to spar more in the future.
    Oh, and I forgot about teaching footsweeps and takedowns without teaching breakfalling. That is, in my opinion, quite foolish.
  10. jtkarate is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/08/2007 9:58pm


     Style: karate,judo,JJ,Aikido,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Because as much some people being hook kicked full force in the base of the skull, it kind of takes away my desire to spar more in the future.
    Oh, and I forgot about teaching footsweeps and takedowns without teaching breakfalling. That is, in my opinion, quite foolish.

    Sounds more like a poor instructor than a flaw with the style. IMO
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