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  1. Christian_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2007 10:48am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Kenpo Techniques

    Well, thought I'd start a thread to hear what you guys might have to say on this, so, here it goes.
    Over the past couple of months ive started to really look at what the system is about (EPAK), and well, im not very happy with it. (Probably going to join an MMA school once my contract runs out, which is soon.) What am I supposed to learn from Kenpo techniques and forms? (Just to name a few if you happen to know, Five Swords, Clutching Feathers, Twisted Twig) None of theese techniques work when applied with any real force it seems, and its not like I can take anything from it. Everyone at my school likes to stress "Position Recognition" and I know what they mean by that but, none of the stuff they teach would work. AND EVERYTHING IS BASED ON A STEP THROUGH, OR PUNCHING IN ATTACK, WITH NO FOLLOW UP. Are they just gonna let me move around, and hit their balls and neck while they stand there!!?? Do you ever ever see someone step into a guys punch, block with 2 hands, chop their neck, take an angle, magically force them to the ground with a weak side chop, and chop them again. NO!
    And what are forms supposed to do, I used to have patience, diligently practice them, and assume they were beneficial to me. Now I don't even attend forms class, or any other one for that matter. The main point I'd like to make is, I have a high ranked instructor, seems to be legit, I've met Mr. Pick the Grandmaster, Jeff Speakman. I just think American Kenpo is a horrible system. After a year of training (I'm skinny, pretty good shape) I'm a horrible fighter. Has anyone else experienced this?
    Last edited by Christian_; 7/02/2007 10:54am at .
  2. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2007 6:37pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Who do you train with?
  3. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2007 9:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    go read my Critique thread below. Then quit your school and burn all bridges.....at least that's what I did ;)
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  4. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/03/2007 12:12pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian_
    Well, thought I'd start a thread to hear what you guys might have to say on this, so, here it goes.
    Over the past couple of months ive started to really look at what the system is about (EPAK), and well, im not very happy with it. (Probably going to join an MMA school once my contract runs out, which is soon.) What am I supposed to learn from Kenpo techniques and forms? (Just to name a few if you happen to know, Five Swords, Clutching Feathers, Twisted Twig) None of theese techniques work when applied with any real force it seems, and its not like I can take anything from it. Everyone at my school likes to stress "Position Recognition" and I know what they mean by that but, none of the stuff they teach would work. AND EVERYTHING IS BASED ON A STEP THROUGH, OR PUNCHING IN ATTACK, WITH NO FOLLOW UP. Are they just gonna let me move around, and hit their balls and neck while they stand there!!?? Do you ever ever see someone step into a guys punch, block with 2 hands, chop their neck, take an angle, magically force them to the ground with a weak side chop, and chop them again. NO!
    And what are forms supposed to do, I used to have patience, diligently practice them, and assume they were beneficial to me. Now I don't even attend forms class, or any other one for that matter. The main point I'd like to make is, I have a high ranked instructor, seems to be legit, I've met Mr. Pick the Grandmaster, Jeff Speakman. I just think American Kenpo is a horrible system. After a year of training (I'm skinny, pretty good shape) I'm a horrible fighter. Has anyone else experienced this?
    I don't know why you can't make the techniques work. I don't have a problem. Perhaps you don't understand the nature of the attack. Maybe you were taught the techniques wrong. I can't comment on something I have never seen. If you want to ask a specific question about a specific technique, maybe I can comment on that.

    As far as quitting kenpo, I suppose it depends on what you want out of an MA. Kenpo might not be for you. Why are you training? What do you hope to get from an art? What do you think is unrealistic about kenpo? Then ask yourself if you training is unrealistic or if the art is unrealistic.

    Here is one of the biggest problems with kenpo: people train self defense techniques against a known attack at half speed and stop there. No wonder they can't fight. Since they probably only do point sparring, they suck at real fighting, too. To really grasp kenpo, you must train the techniques at full speed against an uncompliant opponent. Then you must take it a step further...you must train self defense techniques blindly (by that I mean, not knowing the attack beforehand). Most technique lines start by calling out a specific attack or technique. You need to train with an opponent attacking you full speed without knowing what kind of attack is coming. This needs to take place after you are very familiar with at least two or three techniques for each type of attack (about orange or purple belt level). If you train that way, you'll build your perceptual speed and begin to recognize an attack more quickly and be better equipped to respond to it. Then, you need to spar full contact.

    Of course, everyone else will tell you to join an mma school. You can do that, too. You'll get more groundfighting experience that way. It's your call. It's a matter of preference...and no one's opinion is better than another's.
  5. Christian_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/04/2007 6:03pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First off, thanks for the replies. I'm tempted to tell you where I'm training and where I'd like to be, but I'd rather wait until I'm out of my kenpo contract and have everything together, if you don't mind.
    Well Kenpostudent, about training full speed, we did that once, we all got in a circle (no pun intended) and attacked, keyword attacked, no follow-ups, that wasn't allowed I believe, and well here's what happened. Most people just stepped out of the way/ parry, ( I know how to parry, real well, but I still think its retarded and ineffective,) and then punched. I remember trying to be all kenpo-y and all I could do was a lame sleeper hold.
    Now, as far as not getting anything properly, I've taken numerous, numerous private lessons, used to take them 1x a week. I fully understand my techniques (I'm a purple belt by the way) I can explain every last inch and reason for everything.
    Now about sparring, what techniques are you talking about, my sparring partners arent taking a giant leap towards me and standing there while I attack them.
    Probably the biggest problem I have is, well that I'm training with a bunch of bitchy FAT FAT FAT FAT FAT FAT FAT FAT FAT FAT 50 year olds, I'm not expecting you to have the physique of Chuck Liddell, but I expect that you arent morbidly obese, my instructor is, and can jump rope for a couple of minuites without passing out. I understand martial arts may not be the coolest thing for teenagers, but I do have to stop training with these people.
    As far as what I want out of Martial Arts, is to cut the art out, and learn how to defend my self, I want to win a fight when I'm in one, I don't want to magically defend myself from an one attack ninja mugger. And you know what, thats not my only focus, I AM intrested in sport fighting, I love the UFC, and I'd like to compete one day.
  6. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/05/2007 10:45am


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian_
    First off, thanks for the replies. I'm tempted to tell you where I'm training and where I'd like to be, but I'd rather wait until I'm out of my kenpo contract and have everything together, if you don't mind.
    Well Kenpostudent, about training full speed, we did that once, we all got in a circle (no pun intended) and attacked, keyword attacked, no follow-ups, that wasn't allowed I believe, and well here's what happened. Most people just stepped out of the way/ parry, ( I know how to parry, real well, but I still think its retarded and ineffective,) and then punched. I remember trying to be all kenpo-y and all I could do was a lame sleeper hold.
    Now, as far as not getting anything properly, I've taken numerous, numerous private lessons, used to take them 1x a week. I fully understand my techniques (I'm a purple belt by the way) I can explain every last inch and reason for everything.
    Now about sparring, what techniques are you talking about, my sparring partners arent taking a giant leap towards me and standing there while I attack them.
    Probably the biggest problem I have is, well that I'm training with a bunch of bitchy FAT FAT FAT FAT FAT FAT FAT FAT FAT FAT 50 year olds, I'm not expecting you to have the physique of Chuck Liddell, but I expect that you arent morbidly obese, my instructor is, and can jump rope for a couple of minuites without passing out. I understand martial arts may not be the coolest thing for teenagers, but I do have to stop training with these people.
    As far as what I want out of Martial Arts, is to cut the art out, and learn how to defend my self, I want to win a fight when I'm in one, I don't want to magically defend myself from an one attack ninja mugger. And you know what, thats not my only focus, I AM intrested in sport fighting, I love the UFC, and I'd like to compete one day.
    If your aspirations are to compete, kenpo might not be the art for you. You may want to hit an MMA gym or a solid bjj or muay thai school. Kenpo is a self defense art. You could compete with kenpo, but you would need to train in an mma fashion. In that case, you would just be better off training at an mma gym. Kenpo has far more curriculum than muay thai, boxing, and other "sport fighting" arts (I use that term for a lack of a better description). Therefore, you will have to learn alot of stuff that does not apply to mma along with the stuff that does apply to mma to get proficient in kenpo. You're looking at 5-8 years.

    Sadly, alot of kenpo instructors are out of shape. That is sad. My instructor is a personal trainer and a talented athlete. I doubt I would be able to make kenpo work without his tutelage and the hard training that we do. It sounds like your instructor is training you in a very static methodology. It's probably not the art, just the training that you are getting that is impeding your progress. Unfortunately, there are not alot of kenpo schools that practice dynamic training. You might be better off finding a school that trains harder.
  7. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/05/2007 11:17am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For the love of God, you Christian and kempostudent. Please break your posts into discrete paragraphs with plenty of spaces in between. It is freaking torture to try to read your posts.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

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    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  8. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/05/2007 12:33pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kenpostudent, how does your instructor break down your techniques for you? When you spar, are you expected to use moves in their entirety (because your techniques are short and to the point) or are they longer sequences that cannot be completed in total? Are your moves even usable in sparring, or do they require a lunging committed attack?
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  9. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/05/2007 2:14pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Kenpostudent, how does your instructor break down your techniques for you? When you spar, are you expected to use moves in their entirety (because your techniques are short and to the point) or are they longer sequences that cannot be completed in total? Are your moves even usable in sparring, or do they require a lunging committed attack?
    Lower belt techniques are generally usable in sparring. Brown belt techniques are long and mostly overkill. I can pull off portions of a technique, but never a full technique, especially since most brown belt techniques involve leg buckles and strikedowns.

    Some techniques are taught against lunging punches, but I think that is in a very embryonic sense. Just because the motion is categorized and taught against that attack, it doesn't mean it can't be adjusted for realism. For instance, let's say an opponent throws a lunging right punch. A technique might call for a left inward block followed by a right punch to the ribs followed by a right roundhouse kick to the groin. Then, I may plant my right foot down so it becomes my lead foot and execute a left punch to the kidney. If you are familiar with EPAK, the technique is attacking mace.

    Now, that's kind of unrealisitic against a trained fighter. Let's say instead of the lunging right punch, somone throws a left jab followed by a right cross. I would shuffle away from the jab, block or parry the cross, punch to the ribs or face, execute the roundhouse kick and then follow with a left if I was still in range. It may or may not work as planned. This is where sparring is important.

    Also, could I not use the same technique offensively? Jab, right cross, rear leg roundhouse kick, followed by a left punch. It's just a sequence of motion. I could rearrange it, too. Back to what I said earlier...I think the lunging punches are just meant to field an attack from which to practice the technique. The motion can be applied several different ways.

    When I spar, I don't use alot of techniques. I fight like a boxer. My instructor uses more of a "kenpo" style of sparring. One of my first instructors was a kyokushin black belt and used to pelt me with leg kicks, so I instinctively avoid the kenpo side stance in sparring. My instructor makes it work, though.

    I'll give you an example of a situation where I used a technique in a fight. I was at a party with my girlfriend. She started making fun of this guy because he is short (like 5' 5", about the same height as her). He was pretty stocky, about 210, mostly muscle. He didn't take to her verbal jabs, too well. He tried to throw her in the pool to teach her a lesson. It looked like it was all fun and games, but she tried to defend herself. So, this douchebag grabs her and slams her on the ground onto the hard pavement. She starts bawling like a banshee. I walk over to give him a piece of my mind. He tells me to **** off and control my woman. So, I was pissed. I told him to apologize...he pushed me.

    Ok, if you are familiar with EPAK, the technique I used was called hugging pendulum. I was in a southpaw stance (I prefer to fight southpaw), and I threw a lead leg roundhouse kick to the groin. I followed that up with a lead hand backfist, followed by a left palm strike, then I rolled the backfist into a right palm strike. He immediately went down. The technique is almost identical to hugging pendulum, except that hugging pendulum uses a front crossover step, followed by a lead knife-edge side kick to the leg. I just substituted a roundhouse kick.

    Also, hugging pendulum is taught as a defense against a side kick. It works both defensively and offensively. BTW...I don't usually go starting fights, but in this situation, I think the asshole had it coming.
  10. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/05/2007 2:15pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    For the love of God, you Christian and kempostudent. Please break your posts into discrete paragraphs with plenty of spaces in between. It is freaking torture to try to read your posts.
    Point taken.
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