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  1. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2007 10:04pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwoww
    Maybe I'm stupid (actually I know I'm stupid but that's beside the point)
    At least you admit it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwoww
    but what is the purpose of using Korean words in KMA in English-speaking countries like the United States?
    To grate on my nerves by making me listen to baekin saekki completely butcher the language.

    Seriously though, for what the above posters said. It's all about uniformity.

    But hey...at least we don't have words like "omoplata".

    Quote Originally Posted by kwoww
    Also, can someone who actually knows Korean clarify some of the terminology? There are probably a bazillion different ways to write and pronounce the Korean words for "attention" and "bow" in English, but does anyone know if there's a preferred way to do it?
    There are two preferred systems of Romanization.

    Me? I like Seoul standard. TEA prefers McCune-Rush Hour.

    Pick which one you like, and stick with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwoww
    I guess that makes sense, but I'm talking about things like "Jung Sin Tong Il," which could be expressed equally well in English, and really doesn't do much but sound exotic and confuse the littluns.
    Jeong Shin Tong Il could not equally be expressed in English. In fact, the great majority of English speakers (and even Koreans) have the meaning all wrong. I had it thrown in my face once on the Kuk Sool forum on MAP when they felt I was behaving rudely. I have half considered writing an entire article about these four words and going over there and posting it entitled, "This Words...I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means".

    What were you told it means?

    I'd be willing to put money down that you were taught wrong...possibly for the lulz.
  2. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2007 10:06pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    To give birth to an army of bilingual Errants.
    Yeah, me and Song Hyegyo are gonna get around to that one of these days.
  3. kwoww is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/01/2007 11:15am


     Style: punching bag / crew jitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Errant108
    Jeong Shin Tong Il could not equally be expressed in English. In fact, the great majority of English speakers (and even Koreans) have the meaning all wrong. I had it thrown in my face once on the Kuk Sool forum on MAP when they felt I was behaving rudely. I have half considered writing an entire article about these four words and going over there and posting it entitled, "This Words...I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means".

    What were you told it means?

    I'd be willing to put money down that you were taught wrong...possibly for the lulz.
    I doubt it was for the deliberate lulz, but "focus of the mind and spirit" is probably horribly wrong.
  4. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2007 1:25am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i was taught it was concentration

    i thought that made sense because everytime i'm driving with my mom in the car shes always yelling chung shin cheh ryo or something like that.
  5. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2007 11:59pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The concentration or focus is 正心/정심/Jeong Shim. This is a Buddhist term, meaning correct mind or spirit. Somewhere along the line, someone missed understood terms, and this has become what most people thing Jeong Shin is.

    Engh. Wrong.

    精神統一/정신통일/Jeong Shin Tong Il is not a Buddhist term. It's Daoist. 精/정/Jeong is pronounced Jing in Mandarin.

    Yup.

    The same Jing.

    As in...jizz. Cum. Spooge. Man milk. Jism. Orgasmic acid.

    Sorry, I got a little carried away, but now you know why I have to roll my eyes when people start talking about Jeong Shin Tong Il and ettiquette and behavior and LARPing outdated NeoConfucian modes of interaction.

    神/신/Shin means the divine, not necessarily as a diety, but as a quality. The Kami in Shinto. Same Shin character.

    Jeong Shin Tong Il is more about Daoist sexual alchemy than it is about conduct.
  6. Wolf is offline
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    T3h R34l Gangnam Style!

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    Posted On:
    7/03/2007 9:09am

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On the note of pronunciation, I just have to vent something that frustrated me for so long. Unless I'm totally wrong the term for bow is (romanized because I'm too lazy to do Hangeul) KyungNe (Kyung Nay). However a number of western folk (high level instructors included) always issued the command in class as KOONYAY! That would drive me nuts to hear someone with over 20 years experience in a "Traditional" KMA who's been to Korea say it that way over and over again.
  7. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    7/03/2007 10:04am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Errant108
    The concentration or focus is 正心/정심/Jeong Shim. This is a Buddhist term, meaning correct mind or spirit. Somewhere along the line, someone missed understood terms, and this has become what most people thing Jeong Shin is.

    Engh. Wrong.

    精神統一/정신통일/Jeong Shin Tong Il is not a Buddhist term. It's Daoist. 精/정/Jeong is pronounced Jing in Mandarin.

    Yup.

    The same Jing.

    As in...jizz. Cum. Spooge. Man milk. Jism. Orgasmic acid.

    Sorry, I got a little carried away, but now you know why I have to roll my eyes when people start talking about Jeong Shin Tong Il and ettiquette and behavior and LARPing outdated NeoConfucian modes of interaction.

    神/신/Shin means the divine, not necessarily as a diety, but as a quality. The Kami in Shinto. Same Shin character.

    Jeong Shin Tong Il is more about Daoist sexual alchemy than it is about conduct.
    Surely that couldn't have been on purpose? Just a romanization error that was never addressed? After all when my mom's yelling at me when I'm driving, it's hard to distinguish the little pronounciations, perhaps when some fat Korean guy was yelling at his students he slobbered and misspoke slightly and it just sort of became a running joke?
  8. babo78 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/03/2007 1:12pm


     Style: Yudo, Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf
    ...always issued the command in class as KOONYAY!...
    Haha this line cracked me up but what can we do. Americans are known for being monolingual and pronunciations are already difficult to monolingual culture!
  9. TEA is offline
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    Now iz BBQ Timez?

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    Posted On:
    7/03/2007 2:02pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: TKD, Relson GJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Errant108
    There are two preferred systems of Romanization.

    Me? I like Seoul standard. TEA prefers McCune-Rush Hour.

    Pick which one you like, and stick with it.
    Of course, a big part of the problem is that very few (if any) of the Koreans that exported KMA use either system, or even any system for that matter. In fact, I have met very few Koreans in the US outside of academia who are familiar with either convention (I bet that is changing with regards to Seoul Standard, though). As a result, you will find a horrible mishmash of Romanizations for Korean terms that largely go back to however some Korean immigrant thought it should be written at the time that he first started writing things down for his student back in the '60s and '70s.

    That said, its not just Korean that the roundeyes butcher. I hear Japanese and Spanish butured on a fairly regular basis and I'm pretty sure that Chinese is being butchered on an equally grand scale.
  10. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    7/03/2007 2:34pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf
    On the note of pronunciation, I just have to vent something that frustrated me for so long. Unless I'm totally wrong the term for bow is (romanized because I'm too lazy to do Hangeul) KyungNe (Kyung Nay). However a number of western folk (high level instructors included) always issued the command in class as KOONYAY! That would drive me nuts to hear someone with over 20 years experience in a "Traditional" KMA who's been to Korea say it that way over and over again.
    Oh Buddha...

    Remember that discussion we had on MAP regarding the whole pronounciation issue?

    I share your frustration. I can understand, especially at a low rank that pronouncing a foreign language can be very difficult.

    It just makes little sense to me how high ranking experienced practitioners, who learned under Korean instructors, or trained in Korea, cannot be bothered to put in the effort to at least learn to say the words correctly. I am not such a stickler that you have to say them perfectly or with a Korean accent...but when your pronounciation is so bad that you are saying completely different words in Korean, you sound like an idiot to any native speaker, or anyone who understands the language. Again, beginners, average students, that's one thing. When you're a friggin instructor or master or whatever...you just sound stupid. And it tells me that you really haven't penetrated to the heart of your practice.

    And truthfully, learning the language helps you cut through countless layers of bullshit. You are no longer dependent on your Korean masters to tell you what the history of the art is. You don't have to rely on the few sources written in English. Being able to speak or read the language of the culture your art originated in puts you that much closer to owning your art, and not just being a supository for what ever the teacher decided to teach you. Yes, I said supository and not repository.
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