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  1. karate26 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 8:16pm


     Style: Chito-Ryu Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    An interesting reply...I'll post a response, as I think a few things are transparent:

    Quote Originally Posted by nickel
    I am an Instructor at OAMA and have known Mr. Cooligan for several years. Let me try to clarify things for you a little. And since it is obvious you are nothing more than a hater this will be my only post.]
    You call me "hater"...why is that? Because I question the way you do business? Because I ask you to explain your methods, considering your status as a Renzo club in Ottawa's already mcdojo infested scene? Give me a break.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickel
    OAMA is affiliated with Renzo Gracie and the main Instructors Pat, Matt where both promoted to there present rank by Renzo himself. If you want to question Renzo’s judgment of BJJ go ahead I believe you would be in the minority to do that.]
    Lets be clear: I am not questioing Renzo's judgement - I am questioning your judgement.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickel
    In terms of Mr Alberigo he taught a children’s seminar and has never once taught adults and or trained with any adults from OAMA. Mr. Alberigo was helping OAMA instructors better understand children and consult on some business matters in relation to that program. Unlike many BJJ, MMA schools we are trying to teach children as well as adults. We do not have many children and this is where we need the work. Mr Alberigo is great with kids and business. This is a completely separate issue from the BJJ, Muay Thai, MMA, as you obviously read our news site a great deal you will already know that the vast majority of news is posted on the BJJ section.]
    I'm glad to hear your adult students are not being taught ninjitsu, but am sorry to hear your kids program presently needs this type of help. You should be looking at "play as the way" methods...not watering down your material with ninjitsu. If you want to attract kids, follow the Douvris mcdojo model: water down the material, pass out belts like swimming badges.

    You admit you are taking bussiness lessons and practices from a person who does not care about teaching quality martial arts programs for kids. Does a class full of kids paying through the nose while learning a watered down program equate to a sucessful program to you? In your association with the ninjas, this seems to be case. As a Renzo club, please prove me wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickel
    In terms of the news board being used to hype events well guess what it is!!!! Although it is always accurate if it says an Instructor is out of town they are!!! It would be odd to lie about it on the news when the students that read it would know it is not true lol that was a lame one buddy!!!]
    You misunderstand my point: my question relates to the quality of instruction if the top people in the club are not there teach. I appreciate the value of learning from experts world-wide, but this must be hard on the students. It is great your guys go out and fight, but it seems they spend a large amount of time away from the club.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickel
    Yes there is a Muay Thai uniform!! And guess what we have a no Gi one for the BJJ as well. But I can see how uniformity and having people wear uniforms like every other martial art is a horrible thing.]
    Why is it bad to have an MT uniform? The question, is why would you need one? It looks like an easy way to overcharge students... I have never heard of this practice in any other MT gym.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickel
    If you read the article Mr Cooligan NEVER states competing in local shows is of no value OAMA has done it in the past and I know for a fact they will do it again in the future.
    o sum it all up I can say this. OAMA teaches high quality Renzo Gracie BJJ, they have some of the best seminars in the country and have the most active competition team in the province they have competed in four major tournaments this year winning over 50 medals at every experience up to purple belt. As as well as beginner through advanvced. Already in 2007 and one Gold at the pan-ams!!! Since you read our news I assume you know this. As of late 2006 we have the most active Muay Thai fight team in Ottawa!! Fighting at least once a month both pro and amateur. Our Muay Thai is taught by two active fighters that teach full time. At this time we do not fight a lot of MMA but we have several guys training that will debut in the next year.]
    No argument here - this is all good.


    Quote Originally Posted by nickel
    I hope this clears up some stuff but I doubt it as you obviously are a hater. In terms of a bad name for BJJ MMA we reach over 400 students with quality martial arts instruction. So it sounds to me like we are helping BJJ Muay Thai and MMA more than most schools. ]
    I should have been more clear: as a Renzo Gracie club with 400+ students, I find it odd you have an almost non-existent presence on the Ontario MMA scene. Your fighters seem to have the skills, but yet they go worldwide before conquering their own backyard (so to speak). I am saying, this is not going unnoticed...whether or not you care to acknowledge this.

    In terms of pure grappling/BJJ, why would you not compete in Montreal or Toronto?


    Quote Originally Posted by nickel
    Reasons why people like you hate OAMA

    We are a big successful school
    We have great seminars that are for our students only
    We go to the tournaments we want to go to]
    Yes, you are a large club
    You have your own policies for seminars: an odd choice, poor for the MA community, but it is your choice.
    Yes, you attend lots of tournaments... just none that will build your reputation in MMA. Eastern Ontario is waiting to see the Renzo club


    Quote Originally Posted by nickel
    We make money and everyone seems to hate that??? Not sure why any other business in the world makes money and that is cool a Martial Arts school makes money and they are a fraud. This is also one of the reasons all the instructors are full time and do not have to work outside the school. They only have to train and teach would you be happier if they had to work full time and then teach like most hard working martial artists would they then be better at martial arts and teaching because they work all day??? I think not… But for you and a lot of people this is one more reason to hate us I suppose?? ]
    No not a reason to hate you. It is a heads up to potential students that they will likely be overcharged, one way or another.

    I posted in the fist place because as a Renzo BJJ club, I think you have a responsibility in protecting one of the only belt systems in the world which is still respected. Understand that as a large club with a Renzo label, you are under the mircoscope. If you choose to bring in Ninjas, you should expect to be brought to task. I personaly don't like your business practices, but no, I don't hate you

    Quote Originally Posted by nickel
    Since Renzo is the overall role model to all the staff at OAMA and he has 800 students in NYC and makes the corresponding money and has a full time team if instructors he must be a fraud as well right?? If so OAMA is following in his footsteps… lol ]
    No, I am not claiming fraud ("Bullshido"). I find it disappointing that you are using "McDojo" tactics. Renzo built his club based on the Gracie name and his own ability. As far as I know, Renzo never needed to bring in the Ninjas.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickel
    Bottom line everyone in Ottawa knows we are a top notch school we have several schools that compete with us in grappling and MMA and Thai, But I am sure even though they might not like aspects of our business I am sure they would say we have a good school… To question our school and someone like Renzo will not gather you a lot of support. But feel free to keep reading our news and speculating about our school… When you teach quality and care about the students a thousand of these internet threads mean nothing as you will see by the continued growth of our organization:happy7:
    Once again, I am not questioning Renzo...only the way you do business. The whole point is that as a Renzo BJJ club, I find some of your marekting bizzare and that self-interest is effecting the reputation of your club.
  2. Askari is offline

    The Bottom Brick

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 9:34pm


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey it cant be that bad. A quick google search found at least a couple of guys from OAMA have fought in MMA:

    Mark Holst: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...ighterID=14862

    Nick Castiglia: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...ighterID=14860

    They fought in one of the Apex tournaments in Gatineau. If I found these two that easily, there must be more right? Can someone from OAMA fill us in here?
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  3. Tango M.F. is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 9:58pm


     Style: Mixed Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    3. I have heard that students must wear a muay thai "uniform" - an official OAMA t-shirt and shorts to participate. Is this normal in other muay thai gyms?
    Yes...
  4. n00b is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 10:10pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Askari
    Hey it cant be that bad. A quick google search found at least a couple of guys from OAMA have fought in MMA:

    Mark Holst: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...ighterID=14862

    Nick Castiglia: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...ighterID=14860

    They fought in one of the Apex tournaments in Gatineau. If I found these two that easily, there must be more right? Can someone from OAMA fill us in here?
    I was at both shows, they represented quite well, I thought(admittedly, I'm no expert). I train at Ronin, but I have friends at OAMA who love it and who do compete. I don't even know why they SHOULD 'have' to rep MMA though, as long as they rep their BJJ and their MT, as that's what I see on the main page.
  5. nickel is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 10:40pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Since you took so long to reply to this thread I have no doubt that you are trying to keep it near the top of the forum in hopes of bringing bad publicity to our school. The reason why I called you a hater is that you have admitted to living in Ottawa, you have nothing but negative things to say about our school based on your opinion not facts and as you will see no one else is really supporting your opinion. You never asked about our status as a Renzo club, as you knew all along that we are a legit Renzo affiliate school. I believe that you try to make your opinions seem like facts to confuse anyone who reads this forum. It is you who is being transparent not I.


    In your last post you said you did not think we where bullshido, but you thought we used Mcdojo tactics for business correct?? But you did say you questioned our Judgment I guess you mean from a business point of view correct?? Could you clarify to me how having one school is a Mcdojo? I would assume that you would have to have to have a chain or a franchise to be called Mcdojo, or am I wrong??

    In terms of our children’s program I doubt you know anything about Mr. Aberigo beyond what you have read on his site, am I wrong?? So have you met the man or been to his schools, or are you basing your opinion on internet banter, if so that is ok I will concede the point anyways. What you do not know is Mr Aberigo has had no impact beyond a one day seminar with our kids we made it clear in the last post. He was helping with the business of the kids program only or was the transparent part?? OAMA has three staff members with backgrounds in Child and youth work and a certified elementary school teacher on staff. This is more than most schools can say, but there expertise is kids not business. Just so we are clear we brought the ninja Mr. Aberigo not “Ninjas” as you say unless he had invisible friends with him lol.

    In terms of our staff traveling a lot, thank you for your concern, but I can assure you are students are well looked after. Some schools may have only one or two instructors teaching which might make it hard on the students for the instructors to travel. We have numerous well trained BJJ and MT instructors and several who are cross trained. At no time are all of are instructors away competing or training. The students are the first priority when making the decision in letting a staff member travel. If it would leave the school short, then guess what happens, the staff do not get to travel. So we make sure that the students are not impacted in a negative way by staff traveling. If anything, our students can only benefit from or staff traveling. They bring so much knowledge back to the school from training abroad, knowledge that would only be obtained by travel. Many of the students have been inspired to travel with their instructors to compete in some of the world’s best competitions against some of the world’s best competition. Many students who would not normally travel and compete thank us for the opportunity. It is also thanks to Mr. Cooligan wanting his staff to travel that one of his Jiu Jitsu instructors is one of the most decorated competitors in Canada. This has only improved the level of Jiu Jitsu taught to the students, not taken away from them, all because of travel. Once again thank you very much for your concern about the impact that the amount of travel my staff does on my students. I will pass on your concern to them.


    As far as Muay Thai uniforms going you obviously show very little experience in Muay Thai gyms throughout North America someone as adept at the internet as you could find many schools with some kind of requirements as far as shorts and t-shirts go. If you think that having a Muay Thai uniform is wrong then I guess you will also have to condemn every traditional martial arts school that requires theirs students to all wear the same uniform (GI) and even sometimes the same patches. To think you would actually want people at your school to feel like part of the team. This also stops people from wearing inappropriate clothing (ie, too tight, old, foul language or images) that make other students feel uncomfortable.

    You want to know why we are not competing on the Ontario MMA scene. The most important reason for us not competing in the Ontario MMA scene is because MMA is currently illegal in Ontario in Ontario, or maybe you did not know that. We have fought in two MMA shows. One in Gatineau, Quebec, which is only separated from our city or Ottawa, Ontario by a bridge (you can not get any closer). The other card was abroad. Are you chastising us for only fighting two shows or because we chose to fight for great money abroad one of those two times??

    As far as the competing in BJJ tournaments, we fight in some of the biggest and toughest in the world how can you possibly comment on that. We do not have to justify why we pick the tournaments we do. We are doing tougher tournaments than any other school out there. Can you please tell me if you think I am wrong? Name any other school in Ontario that fights in as numerous highly ranked BJJ tournaments as we do?? Guess what, you can’t therefore whatever you say is a negated by our record in competition. Some people have even suggested we do not want to lose to local schools. Last year we fought guys from Niagara BJJ Joslins, Toronto BJJ, Gamma in Montreal, Mark Bocek’s school, guess what, we won some and we lost some… I tell you what we will continue to do, we will continue to do the tournaments we want and everyone can go on complaining because that is what will happen regardless. In terms of building our MMA reputation we are not trying to do that, MMA is not our only focus.

    As far as the seminars go when we have a guest and we fill our school to capacity with our own students and turn our own students away why would we let other students from other schools attend please explain how this is odd?? Our students always come first should it not be this way?? It should also be noted that the seminars we do put on are really for the students. They are not required or mandatory in any way.


    In terms of being brought to task for the ninja not “ninjas” thanks, you are doing a stellar job but you do not really have the facts do you?? In terms of the belt system since all promotions go through Renzo or one of his black belts I will assume you are ok with that as you said in your last post.

    The most laughable part of your last post is you claiming we might over charge!! You should acquaint yourself with all the facts. You could take our tuition and uniform cost of ours and compare it to any other quality schools in Ottawa, there are only a few. Look at their membership dues, the amount of classes they offer then compare our facility and the number of classes we offer and due the math and tell me we are overcharging!! Per class we are SIGNIFICANLTY cheaper than all the other schools!!!


    You say you only disagree with our business practices and that is fine, I understand that. However to go on the web and try to harm a schools reputation when you publicly admit that they are legit in martial arts, but you simply do not like there business strategies “Mcdojo” as you put it is wrong. It is obvious that you have a problem that runs much deeper than jealously and you are little else than a hater…

    Take care!
    Last edited by nickel; 7/11/2007 5:26pm at .
  6. Askari is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2007 5:03pm


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nickel
    Name any other school in Ontario that fights in as many high level BJJ tournaments as we do??
    Hi Nickel,

    I was with you for most of your entire post except this point.

    You and I both can name a dozen schools in Ontario that send people to the Mundials, as well as recent NAGA winners, a few Ontario clubs have even been repped at ADCC. Even in Ottawa, OAMA isn't in the lead for the most people competing at a world level.

    You dont have to slag the rest to make yourself look good, the guys are competing and doing well, dont take the hater so seriously that you attack others inadvertently.
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  7. UVray is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2007 5:33pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Askari - can't speak for Nick, but I don't think it was meant as a slag, just the truth. He also said that we have lost to other Canadian schools. He didn't say anything about world level, just high level BJJ tourneys. We don't have any black belts at the school (yet) so we're not going to get that kind of visibility in that division or say ADCC. Here is a partial list of what we competed in the last 12 months:

    2006 New England Championships NAGA
    Battle at the Beach 7 NAGA
    Chicago 2006 Summer Championships
    2006 North American Grappling Championship NAGA
    2007 Arnold Grappling Classic NAGA
    2007 World Championships NAGA
    2006 Grapplers Quest & Copa Atlantica Weekend
    CBJJ Pan-Ams
    CBJJ Mundials

    "Even in Ottawa, OAMA isn't in the lead for the most people competing at a world level" this would mean that another school sent more than 4 people to compete at the Pan-Ams and the Mundials last year?

    Again, if I'm wrong, I'd be very surprised as I don't hear much about other schools attending all these tourneys. I wouldn't try to find insult where there is none.
  8. nickel is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2007 5:44pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Askari

    I did not want to imply that we are better or anything of the sort. And I sincerely did not mean to slag anybody. If you felt I did I am sorry.

    In terms of the Mundials I really cannot name a dozen schools in Ontario to send people to the Mundials?? I really don’t think there has been nearly that many?? OAMA has been to the last three. Regardless I understand your point fully.

    What I did mean to say is to my knowledge over the last couple of years no other school in Ontario has fought in as many CBJJ tournaments like the Pans, Mundials, etc. as well as the big two grappling promotions Grappelrs Quest and Naga. With nearly the number of students we bring. I know this because I have been to many of these tournaments. I say this not to imply we are better than any other school out there because of the tournaments we attend. But rather how can anyone complain when we do the highest level tournaments around and are successful?? To play devils advocate to Karate26 question people could say if you only compete in Ontario and Quebec and not on the world stage how do you know how you measure up against the rest of the world or North America or whatever. Would that not be a valid question?? Bottom line is OAMA respects all the other schools and where ever they choose to compete and not criticize anyone or any school. We only wish people could extend us that same courtesy.
  9. Askari is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2007 6:54pm


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi Nickel,

    Its probably more a debate for the iCompete forum. But not everyone can afford to travel to the out of province tournaments. Most clubs get 10 or 12 guys that can afford the time and expense to go to NAGA or Mundials, or ADCC.

    These same clubs open up to local competitions (the Montreal/Ottawa/Toronto triangle) where there are a lot of great competitors including GSP and Mark Bocek, and others who have fought in ADCC for a lot less expensive.

    If the level of competition is good enough around here to produce a GSP/Bocek/Wagnney Fabiano/Joslin/Karim etc then I think the level is pretty good.

    I personally think you are cutting yourself off from some cheap and good quality tournament experience by not fighting locally (that is within a 4 hour drive of Ottawa). And you may also be short changing your less affluent students who cant afford the trips, they could definitely benifit from the experience.

    There also is the local advertising advantage of competing more in MMA that I am sure you have realized.

    Thats a lot of thread drift from me, that has nothing to do with the OPs comments and really if a MOD wants to cull nickle and my conversation out to iCompete, that would be understood.
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  10. elmaniaco is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2007 8:37pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Lucha Livre

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    OAMA are good guys

    They're good guys making an honest attempt to bring high level MMA-centric arts to the Ottawa area.

    Trying to do what they are doing ain't cheap - they have to go abroad to get "instructor level" training, and the arts they are into have premium pricing.

    They obviously have to turn some kind of profit to stay in business, so the students have to pay accordingly--- nothing wrong with that - it's a business, not a charity.

    I think everyone knows where they stand and what they offer - if you want the best reality-centric training, they're unquestionably the place to go to - but you will be paying first class (and you will be getting first class instruction).

    They don't lie about anything or bullshit you - it's not for everyone - in fact most people would rather be Fat Dumb and Happy at Tae Eun Lee's TKD - again, nothing wrong with that either if that's what you're really looking for.

    They're not "bullshido worthy" - they don't bullshit or try to pretend to be something they're not. Marketting is not bullshitting by default - they HAVE to get the word out, and of course they have to present themselves in the most attractive way possible - that's just good business.

    Unless you train in your backyard and don't charge for lessons, you have to market your school.


    El Maniaco
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