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  1. Scott Larson is offline
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    Gold Summit Martial Arts Institute

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2007 12:33pm


     Style: Ba Zheng Dao Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks, Fake, great thread.

    I'll start with a basic number 1 question:
    When is the earliest recorded use of TCM?
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  2. Hands is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2007 5:53pm


     Style: Mongolian

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by isol8d
    Well, I'll skip to Applications.

    What can Chinese medicine/acupuncture offer me in terms of healing bruises and or sore muscles? The kind of bang ups that I might receive sparring, but not bad enough to warrant seeing a Western physician.

    Feel free to answer after sections 1-4 are completed.
    There are different kinds of 'jow that are supposed to work pretty good. There is a jar full of sticks, leaves, and other things mixed with vodka in a locker at my school. The guy that brought it claimed it worked well. It was made from a recipe 3 or so years ago. I'll have to try it to know if its any good.
  3. Guizzy is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/26/2007 6:57pm


     Style: Baihequan, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To expand on the subject of Jow.

    Many kung fu styles were passed on through practitionners of Chinese Medicine at one point. These people often brewed their own specific Jow recipe for their students, a recipe that was passed on with the art. I know that's the way it is in my school (our head of style is a practitionner of chinese medicine himself) and in a few schools I have heard about. Ask your teacher if he has anything specific to suggest. Just be careful to apply it correctly; avoid any open cuts, do not get it in your mouth (even if it is mixed with vodka) or anywhere internal. It's for external use only.

    Else, you might grow penis tentacles and get the irresistible envy to rape Japanese schoolgirls. Or so I've heard.
  4. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2007 8:12am


     Style: Mostly weights now...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I. History


    A. Huang Di Nei Jing [The Yellow Emperor's Internal Medicine Classic]

    This is the oldest surviving work that sets down the foundations of Chinese medicine. It is a dialogue between Huang Di, the yellow emperor that supposedly ruled part of China 5000 years ago, and his chief physician, Qi Bo. In the book, they discuss numerous topics, including the principle of Yin / Yang and Five Elements [which will be covered later].

    Now this isn't the first book on medicine in China, but is the oldest one that we are currently aware of. It is believed to be a synthesis of earlier works and dicusses the major modalities used in Chinese medicine: acupuncture, bleeding, cupping, diet, and herbs. These modalities had been practied in different parts of China for centuries before this book was written...which leads to the question, when was it actually written?

    Some in the acupuncture crowd will say things like "acupuncture has been practiced for 5000 years" because the rule of the mythical / immortal Huang Di is around 3200 BCE, and since this book is a dialogue between Huang Di and his physician, then it must be from the period that Huang Di lived.


    Wrong.


    The error these folks are making [and there are many of them] is that just because the book is attributed to Huang Di does not mean he actually wrote it, nor does it mean that it was written when Huang Di supposedly ruled China. It is tradition in Chinese medicine to make to claim that a famous person in the past wrote a book in order to pay homage to that person as well as to add legitimacy to the work. This idea is still pervasive in China, which is why many CM practitioners tend to think that the classics are more important than they actually are - but that is another topic entirely.

    So how old is the Huang Di Nei Jing? Probably about 2500 years old, from the Han Dynasty or just prior to it. From archaeological evidence, acupuncture probably goes back at least 3000 years and herbal medicine goes back earlier than that.
  5. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Y SO SRIUS?

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2007 8:48am

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would like to ask.

    Does it work? Does anyone here actually have experience one way or the other?
    I train with a woman who goes to acupuncture and swears by it. She suffers from a great deal of incurable ailments that are genetic. Could this be a placebo effect?

    Of course, as I have said in the past, If I wanted needles stuck in me to feel good, I would do Heroin.
  6. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2007 6:27pm


     Style: Mostly weights now...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    I would like to ask.

    Does it work? Does anyone here actually have experience one way or the other?
    I train with a woman who goes to acupuncture and swears by it. She suffers from a great deal of incurable ailments that are genetic. Could this be a placebo effect?

    Of course, as I have said in the past, If I wanted needles stuck in me to feel good, I would do Heroin.

    Efficacy of the treatments of acupuncture for different conditions has to be covered later, once everyone has a intro-level understanding of the topic. If we were to jump into the research right now, very few people would be able to understand the methods, results, and discussion.
  7. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Y SO SRIUS?

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2007 6:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Quikfeet509
    Efficacy of the treatments of acupuncture for different conditions has to be covered later, once everyone has a intro-level understanding of the topic. If we were to jump into the research right now, very few people would be able to understand the methods, results, and discussion.

    I believe I would fall into that category.


    Carry on.
  8. NJM is offline
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    Putting the "ow" back in "flowery technique"

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2007 4:40pm


     Style: CMA, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This topic wins.

    Are we still on accupuncture are can we talk about herbal/mineral remedies?
  9. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    7/17/2007 10:13am


     Style: Mostly weights now...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry for being too busy to continue this thread. I'll try and add more information later today in the order I already mentioned. I plan on skipping the rest of the history [minus what I'll cover in this brief post] and go into Yin - Yang theory. This can be an ugly topic and usually takes some time for people to get a basic understanding of what it means and how it relates to TCM. One of the problems with Chinese medicine is that it takes knowledge of the whole to actually understand the parts, mainly d/t the influence of Yin-Yang, Five Elements, and the culture / religious influences present during the development of Chinese medicine.

    Once all of the parts are finally presented [don't hold your breath], we can move all of the questions to the end and discuss them.


    I. History
    B. Shang Han Lun [Treatise on Cold Disease], Shen Nong Ben Cao [Shen Nong's Divine Husbandry Classic], and countless other classics shamlessly covered in a brief post.

    - I'm writting this post from memory so I'll go back and correct any problems with dates later today

    1. Shang Han Lun: written by Zhang Zhongjing about 1800 years ago and is a significant early work covering the topic of infectious disease. Many of the formulas elucidated by Zhongjing are still in use today, with some modification, for infectious disease. Two of the most famous formulas from the book are used for common cold and flu: Ma Huang Tang and Gui Zhi Tang. Both of these formulas are a god-send during cold and flu season and can be used effectively with modification. I thnk they are much more effective than the commonly used Western OTC remedies [guafenesin and dextromethorphan], although I would like to eventually start integrating the use of both.


    Here is the best [IMHO] translation of the book available today in the US: http://www.amazon.com/Shang-Han-Lun-.../dp/0912111577


    2. Shen Nong Ben Cao: this collection of books has been re-written and modified since it was first recorded and attributed to the legendary immortal, Shen Nong, known as the father of Chinese herbal medicine. The first version of this classic was said to be written by Huai Nan Zi, who lived about 2200 years ago, although CHM was practiced for at least 1000 years prior to Huai. Initially, this book covered about 350+ herbs.


    Version of the book [shortened]: http://www.redwingbooks.com/html/cat...d/file_Chapter


    From the Redwing review of the book:

    As mentioned previously, this work is the locus classicus of the ben cao or materia medica literature of Chinese medicine. It is this literature which describes the ingredients of Chinese medicine, their flavors and natures (i.e., temperatures), their functions, and indications. According to this book, medicinals have five basic flavors -- sour, salty, sweet, bitter, and acrid -- and four qi or natures -- cold, hot, warm, and cool. Hot diseases should be treated with cold medicinals and cold diseases should be treated with hot medicinals. This book also introduced the first method of classifying Chinese medicinals. Within this classic, all medicinals are classified into three grades or categories: superior medicinals corresponding to heaven which govern the maintenance of life and are without toxicity, medium medicinals corresponding to humankind which benefit human nature and have some medicinal functions, and inferior medicinals corresponding to earth which cure disease and definitely do have some toxicity. Further, medicinals are also categorized into sovereigns, ministers, assistants, and envoys. Hence, one can find all the most basic and elemental theories of Chinese herbal medicine in seminal form in this classic.
  10. The_Tao is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2007 10:42pm


     Style: Proudly Shaolin Do.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    is more info on the way?
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