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  1. Kilgore Trout is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/06/2008 6:46pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: kenpo, Boxing,

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    wow! i trained in a Tracy's school starting in 1970. Paul Wagner was the head instructor. He is an excellent teacher. Every school, whether Tracy Bros or Parker are very different. The Tracy schools I encountered were all excellent. Steve Murrillo, Rick Avery, Flores Bros., Joe lewis, Keith Haflich, were outstanding instructors with Tracy's. The school i learned in was extremely competitive and we dominated in tournaments and full contact.


    On the other hand, most Ed Parker students i ran into were horrible. I had a woman student that i flunked for her brown belt. She couldn't fight her way out of a wet paper bag. She quit and went to Ed Parker's Pasadena school. She is now a 6th degree black belt and still cant fight her way out of a wet paper bag.

    There are a lot of politics in Kenpo. Ed Parker's schools were the worst with this. The rift between Tracys and Ed Parker is total politics and all about $$$$.

    If you want to train check each school and judge it by itself.

    Tracy techniques work just fine and unlike Parker schools there is live hard sparring, lots of competition and more athleticism.

    During the course of running my own kenpo schools for 15 years i promoted just 4 people to black. You could be there for 100 years and not get promoted unless you could actually apply the techniques and basics.
  2. Dmachine is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/21/2008 5:24pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: kempo/jujitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Any time I need a good laugh I go on to the Kempo forum and just laugh and laugh! Have you guys seen any pictures of the Masters of ??Kempo lately. It's sad.
    10 Years of ??Kempo martial arts training, $10,000.
    Gi's, equiptment, and seminars $4,000.
    Learning that with all the time and effort you put into your training and you still got your ass kicked by a BJJ two strip white belt.
    PRICELESS!!!
    "If he would of punched straight in, I would have done "leopard climbs down tree", taken him to the ground and kicked him in the throat".
  3. drakkorcia is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2008 10:50pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was a little hard on Steveg54's opinion because he totally flamed Tracy Kenpo which is my friends style, but he does make some valid points. I have watched a friend of mine's belt tests and people are always having trouble remembering all the techniques and their combinations like A,B,C,D,E, etc. And while there are some good techniques, I think there's a lot of filler techniques that are not only impractical, but some look downright stupid.

    Tracy schools also generally do follow the same business format as well, the private lessons, the "free" group lessons, family members training for free, etc. But I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. The Tracy school in my town is reasonably priced but when I showed up the students weren't very good. There was a guy who was a blue belt that was really overweight and couldn't execute anything with fluidity, His kicks were on white belt level.

    Another thing I noticed is Tracy instructors are really defensive about their system. They are often extremely critical of Parker Kenpo and used canned statements like "American Kenpo hasn't produced a single world class fighter". Well, I would rather meet a Tracy world class fighter in a dark alley before Larry Tatum mmmkay?

    Steveg54 has black belts in both styles so if he's reading this, I apologize. My friends a Tracy student and a great martial artist so I took some offense to it, but he is right about alot of the things he says. I am leaning toward American Kenpo.
  4. Urban Achiever is offline
    Urban Achiever's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    12/15/2008 8:42am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am not a kenpoist, however I am doing some academic research. Have any of you guys/gals heard of Kajukenbo Kosho Ryu Kenpo? Now I know what Kaj is and what Kosho is. Have any of you had experience with this combo or what I am asume is a combo of the two arts?
  5. Stone1992 is offline

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    Feb 2009
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    Detroit, MI
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2009 12:07pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by krazy kaju
    I used to go there.

    It's a pretty good place. I know as a fact that the instructor there was taught at the only other Tracy school in Michigan, which does both Kenpo and Shootfighting, and has some members that compete in amateur MMA (so I'd be assuming they spar a lot).

    At the Oakland County school, however, there is no sparring. During group classes, striking techniques (actual useful striking techniques from a boxing/muay thai stance) are gone over and practiced on Thai pads. During private lessons, the Tracy System techniques can be learned, but I believe that the instructor (I think his name was like Brad Rabe or something similar) also offers shootfighting.

    In essence, the school you were thinking about doesn't do really that much Tracy technique, but more of a "harder" version of cardio-kickboxing, or perhaps a sparring-less version of kickboxing (I know it's an oxymoron, but it depends on how you look at it).

    In any case, the school is pretty good, but as you pointed out, WAY TOO EXPENSIVE. And they don't spar, but I believe that that is due to the fact that the area where they located is too small and they do not have headgear, sparring gloves, etc. In any case, those are the two of the three reasons I don't go there any more (the other being that wrestling season is starting soon).

    If you're looking for kickboxing/boxing, I suggest you look at Cooper's Muay Thai Gym (located at Dearborn/Detroit area) or perhaps Dynamic Boxing (in Westland).
    Kenpo Karate of Oakland Karate, http://kenpo-selfdefense.com/, is a great place to train! I've been training there for about 21 months. I've trained in other arts and have found the instructor, Brad Rabe, to be one of the finest teachers I've encountered.

    Your description of the group classes are pretty accurate: we cover practical striking techniques on focus mitts and thai pads (fists, elbows, knees, shins, etc.). Of course it depends on who is training that particular evening. Some of the striking isn't really practical (feels more like cardio kickboxing), but the majority is.

    As far as sparring: Brad used to do sparring classes once a month, but that didn't last too long. During your private lesson you can work on whatever you want: self-defense techs, sparring, basics, sticks, shoot-fighting, etc. When we spar, we use 18 oz boxing gloves, shin pads, cup, and mouth piece, and we typically spar full-contact at about 70% power.

    Tracy Kenpo has some useless self-defense techs, but the majority of them work well. It all just depends on the martial artist. I've seen some guys who couldn't use what they've learned to save their life. And there are others who excel. How much work are you willing to put in? Plus, Brad teaches you how to apply the techs in the street, not just the way there are written on paper. he is very combat oriented.

    Cost: seems a little high for one person ($1300 paid up front for the year). But if you consider that you can have your daughter, son, etc. train with you at no additional cost, how can you go wrong? If there are two of you training for a total of $1300 ($650 per person), how is that expensive? No belt fees. No sign-up fees. Consider paying over $2000 for two of you at a Taekwondo studio and then compare it to $1300 at the Kenpo studio. No brainer.

    Overall: great place to train if you want to work hard and put in the time. It's definitely not a 2-year Black Belt McDojo. When you get your 1st Black in Brad's studio, you know you're a badass mofo and have earned it!
  6. ironfist666 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2009 1:56pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kempo, Kosho, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirus View Post
    I am not a kenpoist, however I am doing some academic research. Have any of you guys/gals heard of Kajukenbo Kosho Ryu Kenpo? Now I know what Kaj is and what Kosho is. Have any of you had experience with this combo or what I am asume is a combo of the two arts?
    I train in both kempo and kosho and have found few problems with either art. combined with a ground fighting art (IE BJJ) is a a very good mix, and i have always been able to hold my own against muay thai and boxing fighters
  7. Zendetta is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2009 2:00pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MMA, functional JKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Any Ke?po Controversy MUST be settled by way of Mullets and American Flag Gis.
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  8. ironfist666 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2009 2:18pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kempo, Kosho, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirus View Post
    I am not a kenpoist, however I am doing some academic research. Have any of you guys/gals heard of Kajukenbo Kosho Ryu Kenpo? Now I know what Kaj is and what Kosho is. Have any of you had experience with this combo or what I am asume is a combo of the two arts?

    there are two versions of kosho. you see james mitose only offically promoted 6 men to black belt (kelly, kraxberger, trias, yamaguchi, chow, and juchnik) the first five he taught when he lived in hawaii. When he was put in prison he began teaching both bruce juchnik and his son thomas in kosho. both men were highly skilled martial artist ( mitose in kajukenbo and juchnik in a plethora of arts including shotokan, tracy kempo, white crane, arnis, and tai chi among others) after his death both juchnik and mitose claimed that the elder mitose had named them the grandmaster.

    so goes the story that juchnik was such a highly skilled martial artist he was able to learn the finer points of the kosho-ryu system. mitose was less advanced and combined the kosho he learned from his father with kajukenbo and renamed it kajukenbo kosho-ryu.

    the controversy arises over blood lines and technique. you see, kosho ryu is made up of 8 seperate arts
    1.) energy collection-essentially breathing exercises and posture
    2.) ealing art-herbology and shiatsu
    3.) japanese yoga and jumping arts-kosho conditioning exercises
    4.) escaping arts-self explanitory, both evasive manuvers such as dodges, bob and weaves, slips and using the octogon to avoid being hit, and at its highest level avoiding all conflict. this is the highest level of martial arts according to mitose
    5.) philosophy- studying the mon, which is the symbol of kosho, as well as martial ethics and mediation, along with buhdism
    6.) folding arts- used to describe various jiu jitsu like techniques such as throws, pins and joint locks. some of the stuff very closely resembles judo or BJJ, some aikido, some wrestling and some of it is its own breed entirley
    7.) meditation-actual meditation, along with several cultural arts designed to help focus the mind such as calligraphy, iaido, and others
    8.) war arts- the basic punches, kicks, blocks, and strikes seen in most arts

    now, the only one who mitose taught all of these aspects to was Bruce Juchnik. However, he also sated the only way someone could have true understanding of kosho was to be of the Mitose lineage (IE his son) so the two men factioned into their own organizations. I know very little about their relationship but i know that it is, in the very least respectful

    now there is another organization run by a jackass by the name of namir hassan. hassan studied for awhile with mitose but was a god awful student. mitose decided to give hassan one last chance and told him to collect money from a man who owed mitose money. rather than do the intelligent thing and talk to the man, hassan broke into their house, pulled the mans wife out of their bed, knocked her unconcious, pulled the man out, punched him once, kicked him in the chest, stabbed him in the eye, and choked him to death. Mitose was guilt ridden and took the blame. he was tried and convicted. unfortunatly his trial was far from fair as the jury was made up of all white men and woman, 7 of who were WWII vets who had fought in japan. Hassan changed his name to what it is now (from terry lee to namir hassan) and began touting himself off as a grandmaster of kosho. he once challenged Juchnik during a seminar, which was seen as a great sign of disrespect and mitose jr. established his organization will no longer have anything to do with hassan, with juchnik following suit
  9. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2009 2:18pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Testing. Ignore this post.
  10. mike321 is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2009 3:10pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ke?po should have been and should be a big tent. Winning a lineage war in ke?po is just as lame as losing one. I started kenpo because I wanted to learn to fight, I only knew wrestling at the time (I know cognitive dissonance and this was pre-ufc.) The art in any form is fun because it contains so many elements from so many sources, but it lacked a decent fighting ruleset. Point sparring was either unrealistically soft or you were breaking the rules (a wink and a nod is lame also so fighting hard and calling it point sparring is not much better, not to mention guessing how much contact is allowed is dangerous.) A decent set of fighting rules, openness to everyone, and cool peacock-like uniforms would make a fine art. I also would keep the standards for a black-belt relatively low and let everyone know a blackbelt is not a big deal. (High standards for bjj blackbelts works fine for them but I don't think it would work for a striking art, opinions obviously vary.)
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