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  1. draygin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2007 11:17pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Well the argument is not against techniques or combos, but rather the practicality and liklihood of actually using them in a real fight.

    I can concoct some pretty wacky strings of technique, and if I'm wearing a high enough ranked black belt, people WILL believe they are useful. But that doesn't make them useful.
    The problem is not in the techniques, it's in the lack of experience with those teaching them. I don't tell my students they will do the techniques the same in a real fight and we train with them in different ways. We spar with boxing gloves and try to work our techniques in a boxing format.
    We also have a light contact sparring we do to work the larger range of techniques without serious harm.
    Then we also do as realistic as we can with respect to our classmates. There is a reason we call them base techniques. As I said before, you can work the combos like a boxer and you can work the techniques in the ideal phase and what not. You are not helping someone by giving them a wad of basics and tell them to go use it.

    It's all in the approach of the instruction. It's the Mc Dojos that try to get the student to believe that if you have your techniques down pat you'll never loose a fight. Get the technique down to science, then mess them up over and over and over until they learn to think for themself. Without the techniques though you are missing out on good reflex and muscle memory.

    Most schools just want the tuition and belt fees though. Most of the instructors have no real world experience either. That's like trying to teach someone to write when all you have done is read. Life experience is a major factor. If you don't have it, don't tell your student it will work. How do you know?(the instructor in question that is)
  2. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2007 3:07am

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree. The trick in my mind is about actually applying what you learned. Knowing the proper application is obviously half the battle. But taking that, and working it into an isolated drilling environment, and then taking that technical prowess and applying it into a larger combat gameplan is something that takes months and months of hard work and getting hit. Something a lot of people just don't seem willing to do.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  3. draygin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2007 11:50pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    I agree. The trick in my mind is about actually applying what you learned. Knowing the proper application is obviously half the battle. But taking that, and working it into an isolated drilling environment, and then taking that technical prowess and applying it into a larger combat gameplan is something that takes months and months of hard work and getting hit. Something a lot of people just don't seem willing to do.
    Agreed. It's not the most marketable methodology on the planet. I only have a handfull of students following the whole thing. But they help bring a reality check to the rest of the class. It took me 10 years to get my Black Belt from Frank Trejo, and a few pints of blood.
  4. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/09/2007 3:56am

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Blood is overrated ;)
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  5. krazy kaju is offline
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    I'm not witty enough for this custom title.

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2007 7:54pm


     Style: In Hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by draygin
    No the techniques are not the same and I was talking about the forms. Mitose was a con man. Parker said Mitose tought outdated techniques and it was stated here and on the Tracy sites Mitose taught form. Chow added circular motion to Mitose's outdated and rigid Kenpo. Mitose constantly followed whoever was sucsessful. He wore the clothes of an ordained minister in order to get contributions to build a temple for himself. Mitose and the Tracys do not have the samer techniques. The Tracys followed in the footsteps of fraud. This is Bullshido. I call the Tracys on BULLSHIT. Anyone who watches the Tracy's and the Parkers on youtube can see the difference.
    BURDEN OF PROOF

    You're making A LOT of unsourced statements.

    First of all, I know as a FACT, from reviewing Mitose's book, from personal experience in Tracy Kenpo, and from watching EPAK and Tatum Kenpo videos, that the techniques from Mitose are almost ALL found in Tracy Kenpo and EPAK (and EPAK's offshoots).

    You're making a lot of biased, unsourced, and unclear statements.

    How was Mitose a con man? How was Mitose's kenpo outdated? How was Chow's kenpo any better? How do the Tracy System differ from Mitose's kenpo (I only see similarities)? Why is the Tracy System a fraud?

    As for difference between Tracy/Parker... Do you really see THAT much difference? Don't the techniques in both Tracy and EPAK correspond (a lot of them do)? Please post a video and compare/contrast the differences.
  6. draygin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/11/2007 12:16pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by krazy kaju
    BURDEN OF PROOF

    You're making A LOT of unsourced statements.

    First of all, I know as a FACT, from reviewing Mitose's book, from personal experience in Tracy Kenpo, and from watching EPAK and Tatum Kenpo videos, that the techniques from Mitose are almost ALL found in Tracy Kenpo and EPAK (and EPAK's offshoots).

    You're making a lot of biased, unsourced, and unclear statements.

    My statements are not Biased or unsourced. My source:


    MY EXPERIENCES WITH JAMES MITOSE
    BY
    ED PARKER

    First paragraph:

    Contrary to some of the claims that have been made in
    publications, I was never a student of James M. Mitose. I observed his
    class in Honolulu in the mid forties, but I was not convinced about
    the effectiveness of many of the methods that he taught. Having a
    chance to scrutinize his class allowed me to be convinced that a
    number of the methods he employed would not work on the street. As a
    young experienced street fighter I felt that many of his methods
    lacked realistic application. The street punches come fast and
    furiously and to see his students catching punches in midİair with the
    maneuvers they employed would not work in my mind. However, observing
    Chow's class was a much different experience. Because of Chow's
    altercations in the streets of Honolulu, practical application was,
    indeed, prevalent.


    How was Mitose a con man? How was Mitose's kenpo outdated? How was Chow's kenpo any better? How do the Tracy System differ from Mitose's kenpo (I only see similarities)? Why is the Tracy System a fraud?

    The Tracy system is a fraud due to the fact many of their referenceing goes back to Mitose who was not teaching Kempo near what parker did. Mitose's was straight out linear. After Parker and Mitose died the Tracy's claimed they got the real deal from Mitose. Not true, hence fraud.

    Mitose was up on Federal charges for fraud, here is what Mr. Parker said about Mitose and fraud:

    He asked to meet a number of my celebrity students and friends.
    This included friends of the movie industry as well as those in
    politics. It was his desire to raise funds for a number of his
    projects and he felt that photos taken with these celebrities would
    give him greater recognition and prestige. He felt that donations
    would be easier to raise if he could show proof of his affiliation
    with these celebrities. He also felt that being dressed as an ordained
    minister was another effective means of raising funds. "People are
    more inclined to donate money to men of the ministry.", he said. He
    mentioned that he planned to go to Japan to display these pictures. He
    was convinced that he could raise one or two dollars from every family
    he visited. His goal was to raise 10 to 15 million dollars.


    As for difference between Tracy/Parker... Do you really see THAT much difference? Don't the techniques in both Tracy and EPAK correspond (a lot of them do)? Please post a video and compare/contrast the differences.
    As for differnce between the two, yes there are huge differences. There are similarities as there are with most Kung Fu and Karate. To an untrained eye they all look similar. The Tracy's are lacking due to the fact Ed Parker tought them flawed technique. They claim Mitose when he had nothing to do with AMERICAN Kenpo Karate.
  7. draygin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/11/2007 12:17pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Having trouble with my browser. Sorry.
  8. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2007 1:10pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by draygin
    As for differnce between the two, yes there are huge differences. There are similarities as there are with most Kung Fu and Karate. To an untrained eye they all look similar. The Tracy's are lacking due to the fact Ed Parker tought them flawed technique. They claim Mitose when he had nothing to do with AMERICAN Kenpo Karate.
    When you say Ed Parker taught the Tracy's flawed technique, what do you base this opinion on?
  9. draygin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2007 9:33pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca
    When you say Ed Parker taught the Tracy's flawed technique, what do you base this opinion on?
    I base that on the statments of those who were training with Parker at the time. He knew what they were doing and left things out. I base that on sources close to Parker. Mr. Parker also has pesonal writings available on-line. I'm sure even more information will come out with the documentary :
    American Grandmaster: The Life and Death of Mr. Parker
  10. drakkorcia is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/05/2008 12:30am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by steveg54
    It means there is more to the system than learning a bunch of techniques. Find your self a good American Kenpo instructor and get the answer. Or, go to a Tracy guy and get a blank look. (By the way, I know there are Tracy guys who can spar, kick box, shoot fight, fight...etc...I am critical of Tracy KENPO...not the people who train hard and mix other things into their training in order to find what works. I am sure there are MANY TRacy guys out there who have gotten tired of practicing a system that overwhelmes them with hundres of techniques that dont work. But, it makes money for the school owner teaching private lessons.

    No matter what style you study, there will always be someone like Steveg54 that'll tell you it sucks. Back when I first watched The Perfect Weapon I wanted to study Kenpo, but it HAD to be Parker system. I turned down every Kenpo school in my area because they weren't Parker. My friend decided to go to a Tracy school because the instructor was excellent and he liked the techniques. I studied Kara Ho Kenpo, then went from school to school wasting my time on whatever style was "popular" at the time because I listened to people like Steveg54 and as soon as someone said "your style sucks" I would get self conscious and move on.

    I have seen my Tracy friend get in bar/dance club fights and I would hardly say the techniques don't work. I have also seen my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu friend get pounded by his girlfriends jealous ex. I have watched a guy who was a straight up boxer pound a guy into the ground who had black belts in two three different styles. The list goes on... I don't see anything wrong with the Tracy system, Parker system, or any other matial art as long as you have an excellent instructor and are willing to work.
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