Thread: Tracy's Kenpo Vs. American Kenpo
11/11/2007 6:03pm, #61Originally Posted by steveg54
That's the truth.
They're 'dead' drills which are ineffective in real life as they rely on the cooperation of your attacker. This goes for both Tracy and Parker kenpo.
It means there is more to the system than learning a bunch of techniques. Find your self a good American Kenpo instructor and get the answer. Or, go to a Tracy guy and get a blank look.
So, don't tell him to go find himself an instructor when he used to be one himself.
Although Tracy Kenpo has a multitude of techniques, so does EPAK. Both have dozens of techniques which aren't effective and which need to be memorized to acheive higher rank.
Larry Tatum Kenpo Belt Requirements
Tracy Kenpo Belt Requirements
Ed Parker's Minimum Belt Requirements
As you see, all these systems of kenpo are clouded with a horde of techniques, which many times aren't necessarily practical.
Again, the best training for self defense is basically taking MMA and adding into it knife fighting and pressure testing situations.
(By the way, I know there are Tracy guys who can spar, kick box, shoot fight, fight...etc...I am critical of Tracy KENPO...not the people who train hard and mix other things into their training in order to find what works. I am sure there are MANY TRacy guys out there who have gotten tired of practicing a system that overwhelmes them with hundres of techniques that dont work. But, it makes money for the school owner teaching private lessons.
Well I'm critical of KENPO. I don't care if it's Tracy Kenpo or EPAK, but either way, it sucks just as much!
My point was that there is the good the bad and the ugly in nearly every martial art, and the only effective training is practical alive training (which means it needs to be training using alive drills using focus mitts, thai pads, etc. and occassional full-contact sparring).
11/12/2007 3:24am, #62
You know kaju, that's exactly what's wrong with the vast majority of Kenpo today. Too much "the techniques are gospel" not enough "let's leave out the really dangerous **** and see how this actually works if you resist." I miss my old school. Sometimes I swear I found the only decent Kenpo School in the entire fucking country.
11/19/2007 7:29am, #63
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My one instructor went to a Tracy school a long time ago- he didn't ever want to talk about it. He just once said, he kinda just started over. I didn't ever give it much thought, but from what I see now with some research- you'd kinda have too. Your head would be rather abuzz. The system we had, almost had it--- almost. Then it died on the vine as it were( the boss of the style went to jail, as if to prove his badassness), and all his head guys kinda said- I don't want it, do you? Nope. And we all just walked away. That says something huh?
The point of leave out the poke your pal's eye out part is well taken, so we can can get at what really works with distractions like that. I have seen some good kenpo, it just takes a while to get there- and probably more work and nonsence than nessisary.
Someone told me once that all the excess that was taught was to deliberately slow progress- in particular to the white guys taking it and really make them sweat to earn it- yup, it was reverse prejudice and they more than implied it was so. Makes you wonder- lots of tensions we could never understand from the old days. Now it is more of a mean business practice to suck more cash out of the students and its own form of badness. They should never make you wait to " get the goods", because if they can't show you it now- then when? Are there no "goods" to be gotten lol?
Last edited by praetorian01; 11/19/2007 7:32am at .
11/19/2007 7:22pm, #64Originally Posted by praetorian01
Popping eyeballs aside, what would you allow in this comparison of styles?
Originally Posted by praetorian01
If anybody thinks the goal of kenpo SD techniques is to teach you to use a preset technique in an attack situation, then they've missed the point, whether they are a kenpo student, or not. What they are supposed to teach you is that certain strikes done certain ways to certain targets will much of time cause the other person to react in a certain way, opening up other targets of opportunity. That's it. True, not everybody will react the same way, which is why the technique is used as a teaching tool, not as a predefined response to an attack.
11/30/2007 9:12pm, #65
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All I will add at this point is Mitose was not the one to add forms. Prior to parker forms were not taught as part of the system. That is one thing many non-kenpoists make fun of him for. Another thing, Mr. Parker taught a flawed technique to the Tracys knowing what they had planned. Mitose's system was outdated.
12/02/2007 6:00pm, #66Originally Posted by jdinca
Originally Posted by draygin
I'm not sure if you're talking about the kenpo kata or the 'techniques'. Either way, Mitose taught 'techniques' the same way EPAK and Tracy Kenpo have various 'techniques'.
You should purchase Mitose's book, What Is Self Defense?, and you'll see how many of Mitose's techniques correspond with modern techniques used in both EPAK and Tracy Kenpo.
12/03/2007 6:04pm, #67Originally Posted by krazy kaju
As a result, if the theory behind the technique isn't soundly ground in basic body mechanics and how the body reacts to certain "stimuli", then of course it isn't going to work. If it IS based on that, then the technique should work in MOST situations. If it's one of those cases where the reaction is different, then you need to abandon the technique and do something else. For that very reason, you can't train techniques and think that's all you need to know. It just doesn't work that way.
12/04/2007 12:35am, #68
Originally Posted by krazy kaju
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12/04/2007 12:40am, #69
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- Sep 2007
As far as the Kenpo Techniques and why. Why do boxers learn combos? Give someone a wad of basics and then wait for them to perfect them through sparring, that's the same as the only thing with monkeys eventually typing war and peace.
(For those who never heard of this there is a theory for lack of a better word that states if you get enough monkeys on typewriters eventually one will write war and peace.)
12/04/2007 12:26pm, #70Originally Posted by draygin
I can concoct some pretty wacky strings of technique, and if I'm wearing a high enough ranked black belt, people WILL believe they are useful. But that doesn't make them useful.Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
...Willing is not enough you must do ~Bruce Lee