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  1. krazy kaju is offline
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    I'm not witty enough for this custom title.

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    Posted On:
    11/11/2007 6:03pm


     Style: In Hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by steveg54
    First, I am not lecturing you on anything. I dont give a crap what you study. Second..yes, I have noticed the techniques are similar..duh!!...BUT...its not the techniques...its what lies beneath that makes the system work. If you wanna waste your money learning that bullshit DO it...jeeeezzz.
    No, the techniques of either system do not work.

    That's the truth.

    They're 'dead' drills which are ineffective in real life as they rely on the cooperation of your attacker. This goes for both Tracy and Parker kenpo.

    It means there is more to the system than learning a bunch of techniques. Find your self a good American Kenpo instructor and get the answer. Or, go to a Tracy guy and get a blank look.
    KempoFist is a black belt in kempo.

    So, don't tell him to go find himself an instructor when he used to be one himself.

    Although Tracy Kenpo has a multitude of techniques, so does EPAK. Both have dozens of techniques which aren't effective and which need to be memorized to acheive higher rank.

    Larry Tatum Kenpo Belt Requirements

    Tracy Kenpo Belt Requirements

    Ed Parker's Minimum Belt Requirements

    As you see, all these systems of kenpo are clouded with a horde of techniques, which many times aren't necessarily practical.

    Again, the best training for self defense is basically taking MMA and adding into it knife fighting and pressure testing situations.

    (By the way, I know there are Tracy guys who can spar, kick box, shoot fight, fight...etc...I am critical of Tracy KENPO...not the people who train hard and mix other things into their training in order to find what works. I am sure there are MANY TRacy guys out there who have gotten tired of practicing a system that overwhelmes them with hundres of techniques that dont work. But, it makes money for the school owner teaching private lessons.
    Yeah?

    Well I'm critical of KENPO. I don't care if it's Tracy Kenpo or EPAK, but either way, it sucks just as much!

    My point was that there is the good the bad and the ugly in nearly every martial art, and the only effective training is practical alive training (which means it needs to be training using alive drills using focus mitts, thai pads, etc. and occassional full-contact sparring).
  2. bushi_no_ki is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/12/2007 3:24am


     Style: TMA, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You know kaju, that's exactly what's wrong with the vast majority of Kenpo today. Too much "the techniques are gospel" not enough "let's leave out the really dangerous **** and see how this actually works if you resist." I miss my old school. Sometimes I swear I found the only decent Kenpo School in the entire fucking country.
  3. praetorian01 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 7:29am


     Style: many; box,TKD,croty,BJJ..

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My one instructor went to a Tracy school a long time ago- he didn't ever want to talk about it. He just once said, he kinda just started over. I didn't ever give it much thought, but from what I see now with some research- you'd kinda have too. Your head would be rather abuzz. The system we had, almost had it--- almost. Then it died on the vine as it were( the boss of the style went to jail, as if to prove his badassness), and all his head guys kinda said- I don't want it, do you? Nope. And we all just walked away. That says something huh?

    The point of leave out the poke your pal's eye out part is well taken, so we can can get at what really works with distractions like that. I have seen some good kenpo, it just takes a while to get there- and probably more work and nonsence than nessisary.

    Someone told me once that all the excess that was taught was to deliberately slow progress- in particular to the white guys taking it and really make them sweat to earn it- yup, it was reverse prejudice and they more than implied it was so. Makes you wonder- lots of tensions we could never understand from the old days. Now it is more of a mean business practice to suck more cash out of the students and its own form of badness. They should never make you wait to " get the goods", because if they can't show you it now- then when? Are there no "goods" to be gotten lol?
    Last edited by praetorian01; 11/19/2007 7:32am at .
  4. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 7:22pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by praetorian01
    The point of leave out the poke your pal's eye out part is well taken, so we can can get at what really works with distractions like that. I have seen some good kenpo, it just takes a while to get there- and probably more work and nonsence than nessisary.
    Is it kenpo that focuses on the "deadly eye gouge" or people who don't do kenpo looking in? Going to the eyes is reserved for a life and death situation. Who in their right mind would think otherwise?

    Popping eyeballs aside, what would you allow in this comparison of styles?

    Quote Originally Posted by praetorian01
    Someone told me once that all the excess that was taught was to deliberately slow progress- in particular to the white guys taking it and really make them sweat to earn it- yup, it was reverse prejudice and they more than implied it was so. Makes you wonder- lots of tensions we could never understand from the old days. Now it is more of a mean business practice to suck more cash out of the students and its own form of badness. They should never make you wait to " get the goods", because if they can't show you it now- then when? Are there no "goods" to be gotten lol?
    Interesting point, given the Tracy brothers are from Kentucky and about as white as they come.

    If anybody thinks the goal of kenpo SD techniques is to teach you to use a preset technique in an attack situation, then they've missed the point, whether they are a kenpo student, or not. What they are supposed to teach you is that certain strikes done certain ways to certain targets will much of time cause the other person to react in a certain way, opening up other targets of opportunity. That's it. True, not everybody will react the same way, which is why the technique is used as a teaching tool, not as a predefined response to an attack.
  5. draygin is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/30/2007 9:12pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All I will add at this point is Mitose was not the one to add forms. Prior to parker forms were not taught as part of the system. That is one thing many non-kenpoists make fun of him for. Another thing, Mr. Parker taught a flawed technique to the Tracys knowing what they had planned. Mitose's system was outdated.
  6. krazy kaju is offline
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    I'm not witty enough for this custom title.

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2007 6:00pm


     Style: In Hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca
    If anybody thinks the goal of kenpo SD techniques is to teach you to use a preset technique in an attack situation, then they've missed the point, whether they are a kenpo student, or not. What they are supposed to teach you is that certain strikes done certain ways to certain targets will much of time cause the other person to react in a certain way, opening up other targets of opportunity. That's it. True, not everybody will react the same way, which is why the technique is used as a teaching tool, not as a predefined response to an attack.
    If anything, this would be the ONLY justification for the existence of kenpo 'techniques'.

    Quote Originally Posted by draygin
    All I will add at this point is Mitose was not the one to add forms. Prior to parker forms were not taught as part of the system. That is one thing many non-kenpoists make fun of him for. Another thing, Mr. Parker taught a flawed technique to the Tracys knowing what they had planned. Mitose's system was outdated.
    Please clarify your post...

    I'm not sure if you're talking about the kenpo kata or the 'techniques'. Either way, Mitose taught 'techniques' the same way EPAK and Tracy Kenpo have various 'techniques'.

    You should purchase Mitose's book, What Is Self Defense?, and you'll see how many of Mitose's techniques correspond with modern techniques used in both EPAK and Tracy Kenpo.
  7. jdinca is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2007 6:04pm


     Style: Chinese Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by krazy kaju
    If anything, this would be the ONLY justification for the existence of kenpo 'techniques'.
    In the realm of my training, that has always been the justification for the existence of the techniques. You're learning different techniques not to respond in a set manner but to train yourself how to control your attacker by using different combinations that are contained within the technique. The more experience, the more you understand how the body reacts and how to use that to your advantage.

    As a result, if the theory behind the technique isn't soundly ground in basic body mechanics and how the body reacts to certain "stimuli", then of course it isn't going to work. If it IS based on that, then the technique should work in MOST situations. If it's one of those cases where the reaction is different, then you need to abandon the technique and do something else. For that very reason, you can't train techniques and think that's all you need to know. It just doesn't work that way.
  8. draygin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2007 12:35am


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by krazy kaju
    If anything, this would be the ONLY justification for the existence of kenpo 'techniques'.



    Please clarify your post...

    I'm not sure if you're talking about the kenpo kata or the 'techniques'. Either way, Mitose taught 'techniques' the same way EPAK and Tracy Kenpo have various 'techniques'.

    You should purchase Mitose's book, What Is Self Defense?, and you'll see how many of Mitose's techniques correspond with modern techniques used in both EPAK and Tracy Kenpo.
    No the techniques are not the same and I was talking about the forms. Mitose was a con man. Parker said Mitose tought outdated techniques and it was stated here and on the Tracy sites Mitose taught form. Chow added circular motion to Mitose's outdated and rigid Kenpo. Mitose constantly followed whoever was sucsessful. He wore the clothes of an ordained minister in order to get contributions to build a temple for himself. Mitose and the Tracys do not have the samer techniques. The Tracys followed in the footsteps of fraud. This is Bullshido. I call the Tracys on BULLSHIT. Anyone who watches the Tracy's and the Parkers on youtube can see the difference.
  9. draygin is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2007 12:40am


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As far as the Kenpo Techniques and why. Why do boxers learn combos? Give someone a wad of basics and then wait for them to perfect them through sparring, that's the same as the only thing with monkeys eventually typing war and peace.

    (For those who never heard of this there is a theory for lack of a better word that states if you get enough monkeys on typewriters eventually one will write war and peace.)
  10. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2007 12:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by draygin
    As far as the Kenpo Techniques and why. Why do boxers learn combos? Give someone a wad of basics and then wait for them to perfect them through sparring, that's the same as the only thing with monkeys eventually typing war and peace.

    (For those who never heard of this there is a theory for lack of a better word that states if you get enough monkeys on typewriters eventually one will write war and peace.)
    Well the argument is not against techniques or combos, but rather the practicality and liklihood of actually using them in a real fight.

    I can concoct some pretty wacky strings of technique, and if I'm wearing a high enough ranked black belt, people WILL believe they are useful. But that doesn't make them useful.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

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