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  1. steveg54 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2007 3:31pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: wing chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I do...the 'chun' is not a bad thing
  2. Nathan McScary is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2007 6:57pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by steveg54
    Hi...new member here. Have experience in both Tracy and Parker systems. The big difference is: Tracy's system is purely commercial crap that doesnt work. It was designed to help instructors teach 'private lesssons'. That is the foundation of the Tracy system-money making. No one can learn and use '700 self defense techiniques'..but the instructor makes money teaching them. As for Parker kenpo-there are a few good instructors that know the system and can make it work. The rest are as bad as the Tracy system. Bottom line-if you want self defense you are probably best off if you avoid both. OK-I am a new guy...did I violate any site rules by telling the truth? ( I had a black belts in both systems btw). :drunken_s
    You know, it's funny you mention that...

    I was actually considering training at this one Tracy's school (http://www.kenpokarateofoaklandcounty.com/). I was however, a little surprised how on their website they put so much emphasis on getting private lessons. Especially considering that they cost $35 a week (their other payment plans aren't much better either). That and the fact that instead of teaching core techniques then allowing individual variation, like you mentioned, they instead make you memorize a zillion text-book variations for testing. I think at this point I'm leaning a little bit more towards American Kenpo.
  3. bushi_no_ki is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/14/2007 11:13pm


     Style: TMA, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nathan, just search hard. AK is a scary place to be. I don't know how I got so lucky with my first school.
  4. steveg54 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 4:08pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: wing chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nathan-thats exactly Tracy's little business trick..the private lesson with 'unlimited group classes'. It sounds like a good deal in the beginning until you get loaded up with hundreds of techniques that dont work. It really is a BS system. As for Parker kenpo-look for Huk Planas/Lee Wedlake linage if you can find a school with it. The closer you can get to the orignal source the better you will be. Unfortunately, a bad American kenpo school is not any better than a Tracy one.
  5. krazy kaju is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/15/2007 6:23pm


     Style: In Hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan McScary
    You know, it's funny you mention that...

    I was actually considering training at this one Tracy's school (http://www.kenpokarateofoaklandcounty.com/). I was however, a little surprised how on their website they put so much emphasis on getting private lessons. Especially considering that they cost $35 a week (their other payment plans aren't much better either). That and the fact that instead of teaching core techniques then allowing individual variation, like you mentioned, they instead make you memorize a zillion text-book variations for testing. I think at this point I'm leaning a little bit more towards American Kenpo.
    I used to go there.

    It's a pretty good place. I know as a fact that the instructor there was taught at the only other Tracy school in Michigan, which does both Kenpo and Shootfighting, and has some members that compete in amateur MMA (so I'd be assuming they spar a lot).

    At the Oakland County school, however, there is no sparring. During group classes, striking techniques (actual useful striking techniques from a boxing/muay thai stance) are gone over and practiced on Thai pads. During private lessons, the Tracy System techniques can be learned, but I believe that the instructor (I think his name was like Brad Rabe or something similar) also offers shootfighting.

    In essence, the school you were thinking about doesn't do really that much Tracy technique, but more of a "harder" version of cardio-kickboxing, or perhaps a sparring-less version of kickboxing (I know it's an oxymoron, but it depends on how you look at it).

    In any case, the school is pretty good, but as you pointed out, WAY TOO EXPENSIVE. And they don't spar, but I believe that that is due to the fact that the area where they located is too small and they do not have headgear, sparring gloves, etc. In any case, those are the two of the three reasons I don't go there any more (the other being that wrestling season is starting soon).

    If you're looking for kickboxing/boxing, I suggest you look at Cooper's Muay Thai Gym (located at Dearborn/Detroit area) or perhaps Dynamic Boxing (in Westland).

    Quote Originally Posted by steveg54
    Nathan-thats exactly Tracy's little business trick..the private lesson with 'unlimited group classes'. It sounds like a good deal in the beginning until you get loaded up with hundreds of techniques that dont work. It really is a BS system. As for Parker kenpo-look for Huk Planas/Lee Wedlake linage if you can find a school with it. The closer you can get to the orignal source the better you will be. Unfortunately, a bad American kenpo school is not any better than a Tracy one.
    You cannot completely discount an entire martial art because of that. I personally know as a fact that the two Tracy schools in Michigan have quite "alive" training sessions for TMA schools.

    However, it is rather unfortunate about the whole learning Tracy techniques thing, as it is expensive. On the other hand, though, it is no secret. The Tracy business model was once posted on the front page of the Tracy Kenpo site.

    In any case, Ed Parker AK techniques are no better than Tracy AK techniques. It really relies on the teacher.

    I do...the 'chun' is not a bad thing
    I was being sarcastic.
  6. fivestar is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 10:54am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kajukenbo & Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My son goes to this Tracy school: http://www.tracyskenpokarate.com/
    I can not speak for all of the Tracy's schools, but so far I like this one. Out of all the schools I looked into for my son, this is the only one that does not make you sign a contract, pay belt testing fees, nor feel like a McDojo. He goes once a week and I was never pressured into sending him to private lessons. There are a few things that I do not like about the way they train (throwing punches from the hip and 90 degree arm blocks), but I feel everything else they are teaching will give him good martial art fundamentals.

    P.S. In case you are wondering, my Kajukenbo school does not teach children, which is why I had to find a different school for him. I eventually want him to do Kajukenbo, so I feel this would be an easier transition for him, then say TKD.
  7. steveg54 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 2:36pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: wing chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was not discounting a 'martial art', I was discounting Tracy kenpo. In actual fact there is a huge difference between the two systems if you find a competent instructor of American kenpo. Anyway,you are probably better off looking for a school teaching a realistic self defense/MMA program with lots of realistic drills and full contact sparring.
  8. krazy kaju is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2007 9:12pm


     Style: In Hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by steveg54
    I was not discounting a 'martial art', I was discounting Tracy kenpo.
    Actually, the Tracy System of Kenpo Karate would classify as a martial art.

    And you have been implying that all (or at least a vast majority of) schools teaching Tracy Kenpo teach ineffective techniques and methods of self defense.

    I personally know of two Tracy Kenpo schools, the only legitimate two in my state, both of which train in a much more alive manner using rather much more effective techniques than most other TMA schools in my area.

    In actual fact there is a huge difference between the two systems if you find a competent instructor of American kenpo.
    In most TMAs, if you find a competent instructor, what they will be teaching will be spectacularly different from what the original TMA taught. As an example, a competent Karate instructor will not only teach you the traditional kata and traditional techniques (such as chambered punches), but also teach you practical and effective techniques such as reliable strikes (jabs, crosses, elbows, etc.) from a kickboxing/muay thai stance.

    The same goes for any reliable instructor.

    Now, if you actually look at the traditional techniques of both Parker AKK and Tracy AKK, you will see that they are EXTREMELY similar.

    For example:

    Ed Parker Kenpo

    and also

    Tracy Kenpo

    As you can see, there are some similarities in the techniques that go beyond the fact that they are largely ineffective, make use of circular strikes (such as the so-called "Karate chop"), and use kung-fu style 'flurry strikes'.

    Furthermore, I know as a fact that many Ed Parker AK techniques are incorporated into the Tracy System (as the Tracy brothers were students of Ed Parker). I would think, considering that you claimed to be a black belt of both styles, that you would know this.

    Anyway,you are probably better off looking for a school teaching a realistic self defense/MMA program with lots of realistic drills and full contact sparring.
    I'm already practicing one of the most popular combat sports in the world. I don't need you to lecture me on the virtues of drilling and sparring.
    Last edited by krazy kaju; 10/17/2007 8:35pm at .
  9. pama42 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/17/2007 1:13pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You know hear this question all the time, I personally don't believe either is better, their both great. Itís how deep you & your instructor can get you into the art. Thereís so much thatís political in Kenpo. You people that have been around know what Iím talking about.
    I wish that Ed Parker would have left Larry Tatum in charge of his system, in my opinion
    The best of them all and Iíve seen all of Ed Parkers closest students. Really though you canít go wrong in any of them as long as you work hard and look closely at the techniques.
  10. krazy kaju is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/17/2007 8:35pm


     Style: In Hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pama42
    You know hear this question all the time, I personally don't believe either is better, their both great. Itís how deep you & your instructor can get you into the art. Thereís so much thatís political in Kenpo. You people that have been around know what Iím talking about.
    I wish that Ed Parker would have left Larry Tatum in charge of his system, in my opinion
    The best of them all and Iíve seen all of Ed Parkers closest students. Really though you canít go wrong in any of them as long as you work hard and look closely at the techniques.
    Actually, the general consensus on Bullshido seems to be that any martial art can be effective only if you practice it effectively (i.e. using sparring and drilling as a part of your training, among other things).

    This would seem to prove your contention, that the practicality of martial arts depends on "how deep you & your instructor can get you into the art," wrong.

    Of course, if what I think is the general consensus on Bullshido would not be, or if the general consensus was wrong, it would not prove your original contention wrong.

    However, it seems that in the vast majority of cases, the fighting quality of a martial artist seems to be best determined by the hours spend sparring and using effective drills, not hours doing forms, whether they be kenpo "techniques," karate katas, or kung fu forms.

    Just saying.
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