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  1. kenpo sage is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2009 3:11pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo/Wing Chun/Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    ...again when do we leap from ignorance into research.

    Quote Originally Posted by steveg54 View Post
    Nathan-thats exactly Tracy's little business trick..the private lesson with 'unlimited group classes'. It sounds like a good deal in the beginning until you get loaded up with hundreds of techniques that dont work. It really is a BS system. As for Parker kenpo-look for Huk Planas/Lee Wedlake linage if you can find a school with it. The closer you can get to the orignal source the better you will be. Unfortunately, a bad American kenpo school is not any better than a Tracy one.
    I am assuming you have done limited research as well...Tracy System techniques don't work? Then neither do American Kenpo techniques. Look or speak to someone who studies them both or at least TK since you study AK. Many of the techniques are the same (i.e. Delayed Sword, Five Swords, Kimono Grab, etc.) Therefore, if they don't work then we should throw both systems out as crap...or we could actually research before we speak so we don't look ignorant in what we say.

    Maybe here, especially on this site, we should remember this line from "300" spoken by Leonidas:

    Before you speak, Persian, know that in Sparta everyone, even a king’s messenger, is responsible for the words of their voice.
  2. kenpo sage is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/13/2009 3:28pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo/Wing Chun/Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Are you sure you were an instructor?

    Quote Originally Posted by TenTigers View Post
    I studied Tracy's Kenpo and found many connections to my Hung Kuen. Granted, I have altered them to better fit the Hung-Gar methodologies, and there were also alot of "fodder" techniques which I dropped, as well as "fluff" techniques, which also had to be disgarded. Since I no longer teach for them, it is not an issue.
    As far as Parker vs Tracy's, both methods have excellent techniques, but I like the way Parker's techniques are grouped in a logical progression, and divided into different catagories. I found the Tracy's method of teaching the techniques a bit too random for my tastes. When I teach techniques, I regroup them. I also do not teach without extensions, seeing the beginner level techniques as "cliffhangers," and prefer to take them to completion from the start.
    I am finding it hard to believe that you were an instructor through the Tracy System. The reason I make this claim is that you say the system is not well organized and that the techniques are "cliff hangers" and you prefer to teach the techniques to completion instead.

    The system is well organized, although any system can be changed for the better. The techniques are taught as a natural progression, geared toward the student with no martial knowledge. In this way they can master the basic techniques and flow into their additions or variations when they reach that level. Each technique in itself is complete, everything else is a variation of the technique.

    To run them all together and as you have said "teach to completion" would be like taking a first grade student with no true writing foundation (the yellow belt student) teaching them the alphabet, then moving right into the writing of an essay complete with thesis statements, supporting evidence, and semantic organization. It just doesn't make sense, that is why we teach a small bit at a time ensure mastery or movement toward mastery then add as they learn, just as a student learns the alphabet, then words, then sentences, and eventually paragraphs and essays as they move toward mastery of the language.

    If you were an instructor, what is your instructor certification number?
  3. Nathan McScary is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2009 1:54pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpo sage View Post
    So am I to assume that you have trained in Tracy's Kenpo? It must be since you are explaining that they make you learn "a zillion text-book variations for testing" and that they don't allow for "individual variation."

    Is this true or are you just assuming without any "real" knowledge of the system. I am going to assume the latter, since if you knew anything about American Kenpo it is the same, a number of techniques that must be memorized for testing.

    However, what is similar about both systems is that the techniques memorized, are the foundation for being able to develop your own style and unique individual variations. Just as a child learns the alphabet to form words and ultimately sentences of their own design, so do the techniques in both systems allow the practitioner to learn combine and ultimately form their design.

    As for the pricing, every school is different. I suggest that you try an intro at each school you are researching (if researching at all and not just speculating) and make an informed decision. Further, if you look at trends in education, the student performs better when their is more one on one time with the teacher or if the teacher-student ratio is less; therefore, private lessons would be advantageous in addition to group class, would you not agree.

    Yes, I am a Tracy's Kenpo practitioner and yes I have studied, not just read about, American Kenpo, both are good, it comes down to a matter of preference.
    My goodness, I almost didn't see this since you are replying to a comment I made over two years ago.

    No, I have not studied Tracy's Kenpo in the past nor did I ever claim to. That's, you know, part of the reason why I started this thread to begin with.

    As far as the number of technique variation goes, I made the comment because Tracy's Kenpo curriculum requires 381 self defense techniques and 219 variations (http://www.tracyskarate.com/beltsyst...er/beltreq.htm), whereas American Kenpo only requires 154 techniques total(http://www.akikenpo.com/Kenpo-Journal.htm). It's not really an assumption IMO when there really is such a huge difference in the number of techniques required per system.

    Thank you for the thread contribution though.
  4. kenpo sage is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/03/2009 10:20am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo/Wing Chun/Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Wow, that was a large gap in the response!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan McScary View Post
    You know, it's funny you mention that...

    I was actually considering training at this one Tracy's school (http://www.kenpokarateofoaklandcounty.com/). I was however, a little surprised how on their website they put so much emphasis on getting private lessons. Especially considering that they cost $35 a week (their other payment plans aren't much better either). That and the fact that instead of teaching core techniques then allowing individual variation, like you mentioned, they instead make you memorize a zillion text-book variations for testing. I think at this point I'm leaning a little bit more towards American Kenpo.
    Well, you did get me on that one and I should have been a little more observant upon the date it was posted. Nonetheless, the argument I presented is valid. It is not just you, but anyone who takes such a leap with words without researching to what they are referring.

    I included this quote you made to remind you of what you originally said that fueled part of my response. You talk about what they make you memorize and that they allow for no individual variation or development, but as you have just said you have never studied either style so I postulate, how would you truly know.

    Again, the private lessons; is it better to learn one on one with individual attention or in a group setting? We in education constantly refer to the teacher student ratio, of the smaller the ratio the better the learning as evidenced through study after study. This is the same argument. We have recently had two former AK practitioners join our school and they refer to AK as the Cliffs Notes of Kenpo once they began studying Tracy's Kenpo, I would agree since I have studied both as well and believe both styles of Kenpo are excellent.

    I hope you are studying something, but if not give one of these a chance and don't worry about style loyalty, but truly see what each has to offer through experience not just reading.

    Again, sorry about the two year gap.
  5. kenpo sage is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2009 6:18pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo/Wing Chun/Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    This guy has not experienced both...

    Quote Originally Posted by steveg54 View Post
    Hi...new member here. Have experience in both Tracy and Parker systems. The big difference is: Tracy's system is purely commercial crap that doesnt work. It was designed to help instructors teach 'private lesssons'. That is the foundation of the Tracy system-money making. No one can learn and use '700 self defense techiniques'..but the instructor makes money teaching them. As for Parker kenpo-there are a few good instructors that know the system and can make it work. The rest are as bad as the Tracy system. Bottom line-if you want self defense you are probably best off if you avoid both. OK-I am a new guy...did I violate any site rules by telling the truth? ( I had a black belts in both systems btw). :drunken_s
    I am busy commenting on posts that were made almost two years ago as I was informed, but I want anyone, like myself who was reading this post for the first time to be informed.

    If Steveg54 had actually experienced both he would have known that many of the techniques are the same between the styles. Further, maybe he just is not that good and maybe he really never had a black belt in both. If he ever does read this again, it would be interesting if he would post his black belt number as EVERY Tracy black belt has a number on their black belt certificate even the highest ranks.

    They are both affective arts, but as with any art it depends on how much time you put into your training. I am assuming this guy probably does not train anymore in anything.

    Don't listen to this guy, check them out for yourself, look up the sites. Here are a couple very good Tracy Kenpo Guys and Two very good American Kenpo Guys:

    TK

    Brad Rabe
    Bart Vale

    AK

    Josh Ryer
    Zach Whitson

    Good luck and don't trust the arm chair martial artist.
  6. kenpo sage is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2009 6:30pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo/Wing Chun/Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Try them both out

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick21 View Post
    So what is the final verdict on Tracy Kenpo Vs. American Kenpo?

    Near me I have both schools and both claim to be good and complete in teaching Kenpo.

    Tracy Kenpo has 600 techniques and claims to be a complete system w/ grappling, throws, kicks, locks, etc. EPK claims the same albeit with much less techniques.

    My question is, if I'm going to spend money and learn a system, which one should I pick?
    Take this for what it is; both schools should allow you a trial period. I study both systems still, and enjoy both. Each has pros and cons. I am still Tracy bias, because I love to continue to learn and gather knowledge, and also because I am aware that although they do have many techniques, you will not always use all of them, but you will begin to develop an individual purpose in your study.

    However, both are great and I suggest you try them out and decide what is best for you. Again, the more you put into it the better you will be, it is not the style but your own dedication.

    The more you train, the more prepared you will be if your skill is ever called upon to defend your family or friends.
  7. kenpo sage is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2009 6:37pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kenpo/Wing Chun/Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sikaranista View Post
    The techniques also build upon each other. The concepts in the techniques that a new white belt learns taught as they work towards their yellow belt become a foundation. That foundation is expanded upon in the concepts the student learns as they work towards their orange, etc.

    Generally speaking, the closer the student gets to black, the more complex the techniques are for the belt level
    Interestingly, the techniques as you move through the black belt ranks and that of black belt are not necessarily more complex, as they are extensions of concepts already learned in the lower ranks.

    Therefore, where the techniques appear more complex to the novice, the student studying for that rank discovers that the movements or the way the practitioner moves or strikes is similar to what he/she has learned over the course of their study.
  8. xfire is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2012 9:09am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: taekwondo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's a lot of good information in this thread. There aren't any Kenpo schools close to where I live so I'm having to pick up information piecemeal. I've got a solid taekwondo foundation and feel like I can adapt techniques effectively to suit my fighting style. There's enough information in this one thread to keep me busy for a while. Thanks to everyone that's posted.
  9. SRQJudo is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2012 11:37pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    I have to say when I opened this thread I was VERY disappointed not to see any high flying mullet having asskicking video .

    Anyone else ?
    I second that!
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