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  1. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Misguided style basher

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2007 12:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HAKIM82
    I am a BB practictioner of VEE ARNIS JITSU and it never ceases to amaze me how people such as Killing Moon can run off at the mouth about Vee Arnis Jitsu or any system for that matter with an air of superiority after watching one class. Who are you and what are your credentials?
    No, that is not a prerequisite for calling bullshit when you see it. Killing Moon could study Yellow Bamboo for all we care and that would have no bearing on whether or not your school/style/training has elements of bullshidoism in it.


    Quote Originally Posted by HAKIM82
    Grandmaster Professor Vee would often say "THERE IS NO SUPERIOR MARTIAL ART, ONLY SUPERIOR MARTIAL ARTISTS"
    No again, that is only true up to a point. How you train and what techniques you train are a huge factor also. Those two latter aspects have a strong correlation to the school/art studied.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAKIM82
    For you or anyone else for that matter to judge a system based on one class is truly ridicolous.
    No it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAKIM82
    1. Telegraph punches- yes punches are telegraphed in the beginning, as the student advances , the punches are sped up, the reflexes are sharpened and yes we do free style, with equipment, etc.
    The more Alive aspect is cool but the drills Killing Moon witnessed are still unrealistic crap whichever way you cut it.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAKIM82
    I had an Asian Sempi who had a kia (shouting breath) that could wake the dead.
    Bullshit. Please use more realistic analogies lest you appear to be too keen to resort to exaggeration to defend your beloved art.

    I could go on, but I doubt you'd listen anyway. It's apparently partially-deluded students like you that justify Killing Moon's original post being in this forum. Thanks.
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
  2. GoldenJonas is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    8/05/2007 10:32pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Greetings HAKIM; I held/hold a Brown Belt in Dantor Ryu-Jujitsu under Shihan Daniel Torres. I have been to seminars with "Lil" John Davis, the late Moses Powell, GM David James, Frank "Cowboy" Edwards, Jr., Jose Valez, and Danny Paulo. Actually, Edwards, Jr., Valez, and Paulo (as well as my instructor, Torres) signed my Blue Belt Cert.

    I only preface my post with this so that you know I am not talking out of my ass. Having trained with the above "creme de la creme" of Prof. Vee's students I can honestly say that each have a different focus for their respective style. Since your a BB in VAJ, and given that the VAJ community is pretty small, I am sure that there are some of the above GM's that you would rather train under. Who you train under or what you train is very personal and depends on where you want to focus, i.e., GM David James takes an entirely different stance on training and usable techniques than say "lil John Davis or the late Moses Powell.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAKIM82
    I am a BB practictioner of VEE ARNIS JITSU and it never ceases to amaze me how people such as Killing Moon can run off at the mouth about Vee Arnis Jitsu or any system for that matter with an air of superiority after watching one class.
    While I tend to agree with your commentary most of the time, Kickcatcher, a person can't actually get a good sample of VAJ from one class. This is simply due to the disparity in focus between the numerous styles with contain VAJ in their title.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAKIM82
    I was taught in a manner of every technique can be countered, so dont get cocky, punish the man severely, so that his window of opportunity never opens or his ability to open itis severely compromised.
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by HAKIM82
    GRAPPLING PT 2: AND IF A NON GRAPPLER BELIEVES THAT THE GRAPPLER CANNOT STRIKE AND AND CHOKE YOU OUT IF YOU SLIP IN A MATTER OF SECONDS YOU ARE FOOLING YOURSELVES.
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by HAKIM82
    BUT ON ANY GIVEN NIGHT A MAN WITH WITH THE OVERWHELMING DESIRE TO LIVE (NOT WIN) CAN BE VICTORIOUS AGAINST ALL ODDS.

    THE MIND IS THE STANDARD OF THE MAN.
    I actually vaguely remember GM James saying these things /\/\

    However...Killing Moons' observations and commentary may not have been too far off. I remember a few seminars (I will not name the instructor however) where we were run through Self-Defense Techs that WERE ridiculous and would actually NOT succeed (in my opinion) regardless of how much you believed in yourself and drove the action.

    One of the purposes of this forum is to provide and sounding board for self examination in an anonymous environment. Does every RBSD technique you have learned from White belt on make practical sense in a realistic 100% resistant situation? I will say that other than a handful of reactions and counters, the vast majority of potential reactions I learned in a RBSD situation will simply not work.

    Bottom line is that Killing Moon saw some RBSD techniques during a VAJ class that appeared to be unrealistic and he asked "WFT?". I will say that in my time training in the Vee Arnis Jitsu family I have seen both ends of the spectrum, i.e., techs that are crap and techs that are hardcore real. No one stated anything about MMA or BJJ or Submission Grappling training being better than VAJ. In fact, depending on who you train with in the VAJ family, you may get some MMA, BJJ, Submission Grappling, or Judo in your curriculum.
  3. HAKIM82 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2007 1:22am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: vee arnis jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the replies to my post, I actually enjoyed reading them. So therefore , I hope this discussion continues in the spirit of the board and the desire to improve's one self-So here we go-

    To Jonas:

    The senior students of Professor Vee are far too numerous to mention as you only mentioned the few that you have come in contact with; but I must point out to you that many of those instructors left to find their own path before Vee Arnis Jitsu was synthesized by Professor Vee.

    That is why you have Vee Jitsu 75, Vee Jitsu Ryu, Vee Jitsu Te, and from Moses Powell who studied Vee Jitsu Ryu and then started Sanuces and then you have the off shoots of Saunces, etc, etc. The point being that the systems share a common root ( Professoor Vee) they are not the same as Vee Arnis Jitsu-Vee Arnis Jitsu is Vee Arnis Jitsu-Period. And within Vee Arnis Jitsu you may have your various shades of gray , you will not see the striking differences as when attempt you lump 30 to 40 years of Professor Vee's teaching as expressed by numerous instructors in one System and call them all -VEE ARNIS JITSU. You will see familiar terms and concepts that are shared by the various systems but the in the end they are not the same, And that is the variations that you see and write about in this forum .

    So in my opinion you are in fact writing about several different systems who share a common accenstry but then you you give them all the same name -VAJ

    My point to you is that the only person on your seminar list who actually teaches VAJ-is Professor David JAMES. And with that being said, I am by no means saying that the others are not students of Prof. Vee -they definately were; and I am not saying that they are not masters of their respective systems-they are without any doubt-all I am saying that they are not VEE ARNIS JITSU practitioners. THey are not teaching VAJ as Professor Vee entitled his latest martial arts system in the late 70's and early 80's.

    With that in my mind I have atttended seminars with the alll of the men that you mention; I go into each seminar with an open mind and attempt to learn as much as I can in the short amount of time that a seminar gives you to learn. So, in my mind a seminar is an introduction and an invitation for further study-I never assume because I took a seminar I am training with that seminar instructor inthe true sense of the word.

    And yes there are those who I prefer over others but as they say-to each his own. I think Bruce lee said "Empty your cup; so that you can taste my tea" and "USE WHAT WORKS FOR YOU-DISCARD EVERYTHING ELSE.

    THE key point is that you only use what really works for you. That is the key to your question as to "do I think that every technique that I learn from a White Belt will work?" My answer is three-fold: The question is how well do you know the technique, secondly-who are you apllying the technique on-Bas Rutten, Royce Grace, Winky Wright or your next door neighbor who likes to start trouble and who was the high school bully-everything is relative. and thirdly what are the battle field conditions. Does your opponent outweigh you by 100lbs, is he a headhunter, does he have a weapon, do you have a weapon? The problem with your question is that an absolute answer is not possible because there is no absolute scenario in which you determine the validity or better yet the effectiveness of an RSBD technique.

    One thing for sure-the more complex the technque (too many movements) the less likely you cam pull it off under a stressfull and anxiety-adrenaline situation And yet I agree somethings that are taught in some MA schools ( ie. moving a guy with chi power alone and making him fly into the air) are totally off the wall I have not been taught WTF techniques at VAJ by Professor David JAmes.

    TO Kick Catcher:
    First and foremost, Killing Moon's description of what he saw is his description; and as they say History can easily be HIS-STORY. My main problem with Killing Moon is that if you are going to qualify something as BullShit and then go on to say that you study elsewhere, etc,etc. Your credentials should be be offered as to give the reader of your words some idea that you have some knowledge that you may know what you are talking about and that you indeed have the background to look at one class and have the ability to determine that you indeed know what the hell you are talking about.

    And as far as descripton of my asian instructor's kia an an exxageration instead of a figure of speach is a sign that you are the closed minded person and that you are indeed reaching for a point of contention. Most people would not take the statement literally as you may have-that is really sad. Anyway, the point is that the concept of the noise distraction is valid and it works. i know because it has worked for me. If you cant make work for you-simply don't use it. But dont knock it because you dont use it nor understand how to use it

    And as far your retort to Professor's Vee's Quote : If you truly understood the quote , you would understood that your retort is accounted for, but again you have the right to say what you say. I personally believe that there is no superior system -meaning that there is no system that is invincible, or no practictioner of such a system who is unbeatale. Therefore any one can get
    there ass kicked if they make a mistake in front of the person who can take advantage. If you have such a unbeatable system in my mind please share it with us at this forum.

    In closing , I never meant to imply that someone on this forum MMA, BJJ , or any art stated that these arts were better than VAJ. VAJ is an eclectic system we absorb many elements from many of these arts including muy thai. if you go back to my statement you will see that when mentioning grappling I just stated ; maybe in too many words that grappling as an art is efective but it depends on the environment and the practitioner-the same goes for all martials and that includes VAJ.

    Let me take it a step further is there a system out there that is totally devoid of seemingly WTF-Bullshit techniques? Let's see who is partially delusional.
  4. HAKIM82 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2007 1:31am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: vee arnis jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Father Dog:

    I stand corrected if kicks to the knee are allowed in UFC or Pride. I thought I read that strikes to the joints are not allowed but submissions to the joints are. Well, anyway I dont see combatants doing so ; a kick to the knee is a devastating attack that will severely stop most people when applied properly. My point was that sport contests restrict the most effective strikes that a self defense practitioner would be well advise to use in a street situation.
  5. LI GUY 1 is offline
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    GIJoe6186 like boys, mainly his brother

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2007 2:46am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Strikes like what? Punching is pretty effective. So are elbows, knees, and kicks.

    Chances are if you can't punch/kick well then you can't tiger claw, eye jab, or ridge hand well at all.
  6. GIJoe6186 is offline
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    An American Hero!

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2007 2:51am

    Business Class Supporting Membersupporting member
     TryKickboxingNow.com - Free Internet Marketing for Kickboxing Programs! Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You can kick to the knee all you want in UFC or Pride or other MMA orgs. The only problem is it doesn't disable to injure the other guy.
  7. lacy378 is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2007 3:27am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From my experience martial arts are really an exercise in "what if". What if someone does this to you or that? And how would you respond. Some techniques are realistic and some aren't , but the truth is that anything can work at anytime and the opposite holds true. I was personally submitted by a finger lock when the armbar my sparring mate was attempting to put on me failed. I've also seen picture perfect right hooks to a jaw fail to knock someone out. And once I witnessed a man disarm a knife from someone by coming from behind and putting the knife wielder in a full nelson. Fact is that "what technique will work or won't work" is entirely based on circumstance. We as martial artists can only really train in what works for our body type and temperament. Hopefully with years of practice and diligence our training will have given us a few high percentage techniques we can pull off at a moments notice in stressful situations. Can one class show BS in a system? Sure. Is BS in all martial arts? Yes. Take a BJJ guard for example. Lying flat on your back is asking for a knee straight into your balls. Thank you Killing Moon for the information. And to Hakim82 , don't take yourself too seriously. Your way, his way, my way are not the only ways of doing things.
  8. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2007 7:25am


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your understand of the guard is lacking, Train more, talk less.
    "a martial art that has no rules is nothing but violence" - Kenji Tomiki
  9. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2007 8:52am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the reply HAKIM. You are correct in that David James is The VAJ guy. The others guys listed above by me have developed their own systems which seem to draw influence, to vastly varying degrees, from the core VAJ developed by Prof. Vee.

    David James is a bad ass, on this we can definitely agree.

    You are also correct in that a detailed review of each system could be done given the large amount of variation. I generalized my explanation of VAJ a bit simply for ease of writing and trying to include as much information in the article as possible to provide anyone interested in any of the styles with at least a starting point for further investigation. I meant no offense to the particular style creators.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAKIM82
    Let me take it a step further is there a system out there that is totally devoid of seemingly WTF-Bullshit techniques? Let's see who is partially delusional.
    EVERY system has its fair share of WTF techniques. It is the student's ability to approach training with and open and objective mind, as opposed to style zealotry, that makes the specific style you choose work for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by lacy378
    Take a BJJ guard for example. Lying flat on your back is asking for a knee straight into your balls.
    Jesus Christ? This is one of the single stupidest statements I have seen on these boards in quite a while....CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!

    You obviously do not roll and have absolutley no idea what the guard is or how to use it.
    Last edited by GoldenJonas; 8/06/2007 8:56am at .
  10. FUNKtastic is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/06/2007 9:18am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Eh I got here kind of late. Since credentials were brought up; I do Judo under John Bassano at Longview Academy in Staten Island, been doing it since like October. I also do BJJ at Renzo's Academy in Manhattan since May.

    After reading Killing Moon's post I just thought I'd put in my 2 cents' worth; there is a Vee Arnis school that also uses space at Longview (there are several schools at Longview renting space). On the weeknights that we train Judo the VAJ guys have class right after us, can't give the teacher's name but I can give a description or find out the name tommorow if someone is interested enough.

    At any rate I've only seen their warm-ups since I always rush to catch my train but, keeping in mind my classmates' live sparring randori perspective, everyone who has stayed and watched their classes has said only good things and praised them for how hard they spar. I realize this might be the branch that focuses on judo.jujitsu (they said something to that effect) and quite possibly this school is not run by the same people as that in FightHouse. Just wanted to "vouch" I guess for the guys I've seen since all my classmates that have seen them practice have described the positively.
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