6/21/2007 12:37pm, #1
- Join Date
- May 2006
- New York City
Vee Arnis Jitsu at the Fighthouse in NYC.... WTF?!!
So like, I checks out the Fight House yesterday to show my practice buddy where we’ll be this upcoming Sunday (the TD). I’ve been away for awhile, so I didn’t know that they installed a full on ring for practice and competitions. I guess we’ll probably hold a few sparring bouts in there.
Well long story short, I see the typical schools operating there. One being Vee Arnis Jitsu (guh), which a friend of mine goes to out in Harlem also, I believe. As I watch their…ridiculous display of “self defense” drills, I couldn’t help but feel compelled to beat them with my backpack. Of course ya can’t, know, what with these supposed “laws” and the justice system n’ everything *bah*.
Picture this: the “offender” (can’t think of another term ATM) throws this super-telegraphed right punch toward the other guy. So the other guy steps in, chops his throat, back hands him, then slaps the offender’s lead knee downward (WTF?), for which takes him down (WTF?x2). Then he proceeds to follow him to the ground, punches to the ribs (while still standing) and then another flurry of nonsensical strikes/chops in a manner of a few seconds. Oh, and he yells really loudly (along with his other compatriots, doing the same thing). All the while this was happening, the offender ONLY threw out that single punch for his partner to go all ape-**** on him with.
With that occurring, we left feeling…. embarrassed even though we weren’t involved with the class. Well, at least I did, anyway.
It makes me wonder, is this the “new” idea of no holds barred combat for TMA schools now? Or are they still just stuck in perpetual idiocy of the last 20 years?
Just some thoughts to share. Now tear it apart!!
6/21/2007 12:49pm, #2
Sounds like Ke?po.
lots of videos: http://video.google.com/videosearch?...0Arnis%20Jitsu
Also it looks like one of our members and So Florida throwdown participnats GoldenJonas has some experience in this art.
Last edited by WhiteShark; 6/21/2007 12:55pm at .
6/21/2007 12:55pm, #3
I believe GoldenJonas is a brown belt in that system. He should be able to shine some light on it. Maybe not that particular school, but at least the style.
6/21/2007 12:59pm, #4
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
- Porcupine/Hollywood, FL & Parmistan via Elbonia
I sent Golden (currently a blue belt in BJJ) a PM on the subject. From what I remember, he said the quality of the schools in the system can vary.
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6/21/2007 1:05pm, #5Originally Posted by Killing Moon
This is MABS. This isn't the place for "TEE HEE PROFESSOR VEE!!"
How about you be specific with regards to the teacher, any claims made, and whatever else you might want another reasoned perspective on.Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
"Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ
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6/21/2007 10:17pm, #6
Hey guys, thanks for the link Macho.
Here is my bullshido.com article on Vee Arnis, if anyone is interested.
If the school Killing Moon saw was in NYC and was heavily "self-defense" in its training focus it was more than likely a school run by Grandmaster David James.
As explained in my article, Prof. Vee (the late Florendo Visitacion) developed an art that supposedly takes the good from many different styles; particularly jujitsu, judo, various Philipino MA's, some kenpo, and a few others.
Prof. Vee had a lot of students who went off on there own and developed their own version of Vee Arnis (see my article for a list of the various Vee Arnis based schools that I am aware of). Some schools have a heavy judo focus, some have a heavy RBSD focus, and some have a heavy focus on more theoretical pressure point stuff.
The biggest problem with this is that if you want judo, go to a judo school; if you want jujitsu, go to a traditional JJ school or a BJJ school.
Prof. David James inherited the Vee Arnis school and the authority to carry on Prof. Vee's teachings directly from Prof. Vee. GM James is actually one of the very few "American Grandmasters" that can legitimatley call himself a "Soke" as he inherited the style directly from its creator.
Prof. James' style is heavily RBSD based. We have all see the worst of RBSD crap with hopelessly telegraphed punches and other attacks followed by the awesomely craptastic Kenpo-overkill. Some of Prof. James' stuff suffers from the same thing; this is probably what you saw. HOWEVER, they also where pads and go at it with full resistance, unlike the vast majority of RBSD schools.
I have read reviews of Prof. James self defense videos and his "1-2-3 Punch" videos and they actually got a lot of good comments for being fairly realistic and no nonsense in the teaching approach.
The off-shoot of Vee Arnis I studied here in Florida had a heavy focus on Judo and Jujitsu (but lacked the technical depth and understanding of actual grappling which led to me switching to BJJ at ATT). Personally, I have been on the mat and rolled (not so much rolled as got my ass kicked) with Prof. James a couple of times. I have also been through a few of his classes when he came to Florida to visit. My impression of Prof. James was and is that he is badass who knows his ****. His classes were awesome. Very energetic and the instruction and explanations of why you move or react a certain way made sense and were not bullshit.
The problem is that any RBSD training will have its kenpotastic "holy **** did he just do that" bullshit. I would bet that some of the training under Prof. James, which is heavy RBSD based, is no different. However, if RBSD is what you like, Prof. James Vee Arnis is probably one of the best out there.
Hope this help some.
6/21/2007 10:20pm, #7
6/22/2007 9:54am, #8
I trained with a dude who was, I believe, one of Prof James' students at one point. He did have some lolkenpotastic tendencies, but he was an excellent kickboxer.Undisputed KING OF ASSHOLES.
8/04/2007 11:01pm, #9
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
I am a BB practictioner of VEE ARNIS JITSU and it never ceases to amaze me how people such as Killing Moon can run off at the mouth about Vee Arnis Jitsu or any system for that matter with an air of superiority after watching one class. Who are you and what are your credentials? You did not mention what school you attend and where a reader of this post can visit to see how self defense is supposed to taught.
Let me regress, I used to be somewhat ignorant also. I at times would look at other systems that are at the Fight House and say to myself that is crap or that is bullshit. I am glad that as I advanced thru the ranks my ego was tamed and my ability to see the value in all systems came to light.
Grandmaster Professor Vee would often say "THERE IS NO SUPERIOR MARTIAL ART, ONLY SUPERIOR MARTIAL ARTISTS"
Killing Moon, it would be in your best interest as a person, and as a MA to understand this very important fact.
For you or anyone else for that matter to judge a system based on one class is truly ridicolous.
Allow me to address the following:
1. Telegraph punches- yes punches are telegraphed in the beginning, as the student advances , the punches are sped up, the reflexes are sharpened and yes we do free style, with equipment, etc. I have been in real street fights and I have seen wild so called telegraphed over hand rights and I have seen people get hit with the same punch. Hell I saw it tonight on the IFL TV show. My training has taught me to recognize the looping right punch and step into the kill zone and go for the throat , the eyes, eetc. My training has also taught me to deal with the straight left jab-right cross-left jab-right hook also, did Killing Moon visit us that day of class?
Shouting- When I was a Shorin-Ryu student , I had an Asian Sempi who had a kia (shouting breath) that could wake the dead. And he would use it up clsoe to distract you, and if you blinked or hesitated upon hearing it , you unintentionally gave him an edge as he hit you with a technique upon that opening. We scream for the very same effect as we know that we dont fight in a vacuum. Allow me to scream in your ear and see if you dont react to it to your detremint.
Nonsensical Strikes- As far as I know most people call them flurries. What is nonsensical to you is just plain contact-plain and simple. We don't believe in one strike -one kill. If your really strong and accurate and can pull it off-God bless you-GO FOR IT! I will throw backfist, palm strikes, eye jabs, elbows, finger rakes -ripping -tearing to the most effective target as they become available. I know that in a real self defense situation I dont have time to score points, look for submission or wait for the ref. I have to hit with everything with the kitchen sink in a short amount of time and if it does not seem orhthodox to you so be it.
One punch at a time: It amazes me how people how people can point this unrealistic scenario in other people systems but never see it and their own system. Of course I know that people figh with two hands and multiple strikes. We train with that in mind and also and we have many techniques to deal with that scenario . In VAJ, I never heard Professor David James say that a particular technique is the end all-and be all. He always says a drill is to teach you targeting, balance, self defense concepts, muscle memory and yes the opponent has two hands, and yes your opponent will defend himself to the very end and you will get hit if you leave yourself open and your initial attack does not completely stop the attacker. We have many drills that deal with multiple striking-but we build a person's self defense vocabulary -one scenario at atime
In fact Professor David James often says; 'IN COMBAT; IT IS NOT WHAT YOU CAN DO TO A MAN, IT IS WHAT HE CAN DO TO YOU, AS YOU ATTEMPT TO DO WHAT YOU THINK YOU CAN DO TO HIM.
We at VAJ, are not niave to think that the person is going to leave their arm in place as we do a myriad of flossy techniques in a jujitsu induced haze.
I was taught in a manner of every technique can be countered, so dont get cocky, punish the man severely, so that his window of opportunity never opens or his ability to open itis severely compromised.
In closing, when I was severely limited myself with Killing Moon's mentality I did not look at some schools or system's with the respect that all should recieve. In my journey which is forever ongoing i learned that you never assume foR example:
TKD- IF A MAN CAN KICK YOU IN THE HEAD WITHIN A FRACTION OF A SECOND , HOW FAST CAN HE CHOP YOUR KNEE JOINT- OH BUT THAT CONCEPT IS ILLEGAL IN MMA RING SANCTIONED MATCH BUT NOT ON SEVENTH AVE.IT IS VERY EFFECTIVE. TKD MAY NOT BE FOR EVERY ONE BUT YOU CAN CAN PICK UP SOMETHINGS FROM THE KOREAN STORM TROOPERS WHO DO NOT PRACTICE KID FRIENDLY-SPORT TKD
GRAPPLING- IT IS EASY TO GRAPPLE AND BE GREAT AT IF THERE ARE SPORT RULES-TAKE AWAY THE RULES, ALLOW BITING, EYE GOUGING, TESTICLE GRABS -TAKE AWAY FOAM MATS, REFS AND THE MENTAL COMFORT ZONE OF ONE OPPONENT AND NO WEAPONS AND YOU WILL SEE THAT IF YOU SLIP A SUBMISSION WILL BE THE LEAST OF YOUR WORRIES.
GRAPPLING PT 2: AND IF A NON GRAPPLER BELIEVES THAT THE GRAPPLER CANNOT STRIKE AND AND CHOKE YOU OUT IF YOU SLIP IN A MATTER OF SECONDS YOU ARE FOOLING YOURSELVES.
My Tai Chi teacher is amazing, his Tai Chi is amazing, his self defense is amazing . He does not teach my class as he puts it "watered down Tai Chi for the Suburban mentality" If I did not open my mind I would have continued to dismiss Tai Chi to my loss.
I studied Aikido for a year, and it increased my ukemi skills, my balance and body movement ability are much are stronger. In the end the school mentality was not for me ( I needed a more street oriented style) but I met some guys there and in the aikido world who can hold there own against almost anybody.
So Killing Moon, grow up man (or woman-I don't want to assume because you do not state your sex in your post). If you feel the need to slap someone with your back pack-feel free to to come back down to the Fight House with a liability waiver and I am sure we can find someone to sign in order so that you can dispel the validity of Professr Vee's system.
The problem with many Forums is that everyone can be cyber critic and not put their credentials up to be scrutinized.
ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL THE BIGGER MAN WILL WIN-THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE WEIGHT DIVISIONS.
BUT ON ANY GIVEN NIGHT A MAN WITH WITH THE OVERWHELMING DESIRE TO LIVE (NOT WIN) CAN BE VICTORIOUS AGAINST ALL ODDS.
THE MIND IS THE STANDARD OF THE MAN.
8/05/2007 1:00am, #10Originally Posted by HAKIM82Undisputed KING OF ASSHOLES.