Pre-occupation KMA Question

**EternalRage** · Posted On: 6/21/2007 6:23pm

Originally Posted by TEA

Actually, Judo and Kendo were much more common during the Colonial Period. The first dojang that offered Karate in Korea was a Judo school that started offering Karate on the side in 1943 (Yunmookwan). Two other early kwan, the Chungdohkwan and Songmookwan, were opened in 1944. For the most part, Karate (Kongsoodo/Tangsoodo) is pretty much a post-Liberation thang.

o good call I forgot about those two

**Taejitsu89** · Posted On: 6/21/2007 7:08pm

Originally Posted by EternalRage

o good call I forgot about those two

I don't know why you guys are making so much fun. I just want some more insight on my country's martial arts.

I'd also like some more info on Shipalgi.

Originally Posted by EternalRage

I'm guessing 15 minutes before Taejitsu89 realizes that there's no badass post occupation KMA, no badass pre occupation KMA, and makes a during-occupation KMA thread in which case he realizes that it was all JMA, and that his government totally wiped out any reasonable KMA post occupation by merging the kwans into the headache that is known as the WTF.

Taejitsu89, you better hope that Mav and Der become President & Prime Minister of North and South Korea, otherwise, you're never gonna see any good KMA come out of the peninsula.

Syngman Der for office!

No good KMA?

Do Taekkyon, Shipalgi, Kyuktoogi, Kwongyukdo, Bulmudo, Sunmudo, Ssireum, Gongkwonyusul mean anything to you?

Look them up. I'm not gonna have some twinkie running around trying to convince people that Koreans are shitty fighters with a shitty martial past and that Koreans are somehow Japanese. It's just aint happening. Korea has won and survived many encounters with the Chinese and Japanese. Korean soldiers had great weapons training and like any other military of the time period, they most likely without a doubt did empty hand training as well.

**Blues-man** · Posted On: 6/21/2007 8:48pm

Originally Posted by Taejitsu89

I'd also like some more info on Shipalgi.

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 6/21/2007 10:59pm

Originally Posted by Taejitsu89

I only know about Taekkyeon and Ssireum along with some other old kungfu-like styles like Bulmudo or Sunmudo.

Both Bulmudo and Sunmudo are post-Occupation KMA.

Originally Posted by Taejitsu89

What are some of the other empty hand preoccupation Korean martial arts and where can I find information on them? I 'd like to do a little bit of research.

Start with the Muyedobotongji.

Originally Posted by Taejitsu89

What is the "strongest" preoccupation KMA?

What do you mean by strongest?

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 6/21/2007 11:02pm

Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunmudo

How this is kung-fu is beyond me.

It's not.

However, there are several lines of Northern Shaolin, Bagua, and Northern Mantis in KMA.

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 6/21/2007 11:04pm

Originally Posted by EternalRage

**** i knew i missed one.

I even know like 3 jen parks.

Merciless indeed.

We probably even know the same ones...quick! Check Facebook!

Originally Posted by EternalRage

Taejitsu89, you better hope that Mav and Der become President & Prime Minister of North and South Korea, otherwise, you're never gonna see any good KMA come out of the peninsula.

Syngman Der for office!

Oh god...South Korean politics.

***Omega Supreme*** · Posted On: 6/21/2007 11:17pm

Originally Posted by Errant108

It's not.

However, there are several lines of Northern Shaolin, Bagua, and Northern Mantis in KMA.

That's my point. Lineage doesn't make it so. It's like the Kempo line in karate. Kempo is kempo, karate is karate and kung-fu is kung-fu.

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 6/21/2007 11:26pm

Originally Posted by Taejitsu89

I don't know why you guys are making so much fun. I just want some more insight on my country's martial arts.

You might want to start with more questions and less overly zealous patriotism.

Originally Posted by Taejitsu89

I'd also like some more info on Shipalgi.

What do you want to know?

Originally Posted by Taejitsu89

No good KMA?

It's all good if you do it for the right reasons.

Originally Posted by Taejitsu89

Do Taekkyon, Shipalgi, Kyuktoogi, Kwongyukdo, Bulmudo, Sunmudo, Ssireum, Gongkwonyusul mean anything to you?

And those are barely practiced outside Korea at all, compared to the 99% of the crap that has spread around the world.

It is unfortunately, but KMA has a lot of burden to carry and many hurdles to overcome.

The mere fact that the few TKD schools that continue to teach either old school or practical TKD is virtually nil compared to the mammoth political organizations that are literally choking Korean karate to death.

Originally Posted by Taejitsu89

I'm not gonna have some twinkie running around trying to convince people that Koreans are shitty fighters with a shitty martial past and that Koreans are somehow Japanese.

That Twinkie would probably beat you down and choke you out if you were given the opportunity to say it to his face, so I doubt he's going to try to convince you that Koreans are shitty fighters.

However, the fact is that the majority of modern KMA practice is not centered around creating good, practical-based fighters.

Korea does have a shitty martial past, due to the fact that Koreans spurned their own martial arts and let them die out since NeoConfucianism said it was beneath a gentleman to fight. That is the legacy of pre-Occupation KMA.

Originally Posted by Taejitsu89

It's just aint happening. Korea has won and survived many encounters with the Chinese and Japanese. Korean soldiers had great weapons training and like any other military of the time period, they most likely without a doubt did empty hand training as well.

Empty hand training in the Chosun military was very limited, because more time was spent on weapons training.

Of the 24 sections of the Muyedobotongji, only one addresses unarmed combat, and the authors stress that this is merely to prepare trainees for the rigors of weapon combat. The form taught is short, only

Oh, and that form is based off of a form created by a Chinese general based off of several different styles of Long Fist.

So, if you want purely Korean pre-Occupation unarmed MA, you have Taegyeon and Ssireum. These are not actually martial arts but combative folk practices, like boxing and wrestling.

Pre-Occupation unarmed martial arts were either Chinese chuanfa or Korean adaptations of Chinese chuanfa.

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 6/21/2007 11:32pm

Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless

That's my point. Lineage doesn't make it so. It's like the Kempo line in karate. Kempo is kempo, karate is karate and kung-fu is kung-fu.

We have to be clear about delineation here.

On the one hand, we have styles such as Bagua being taught in Korea. Bagua, if it's taught by Chinese, Koreans, or Martians, is still Bagua as long as it remains internally consistent. This is KCMA.

On the other hand, we have Korean traditions that grew out of Chinese imports. Primary example, the gwonbeop found in the Muyedobotongji. It is a Korean created form, however, it's direct roots are in the Long Fist of the Chinese General Qi. Is it any less "Kung Fu" because the person who created it was not ethnically Chinese?

Just for reference, the Chinese characters for Gwonbeop are 拳法, and are pronounced quanfa in Mandarin (the proper term for what we call kung fu), and pronounced Kempo in Japanese.

**Taejitsu89** · Posted On: 6/21/2007 11:51pm

Originally Posted by Errant108

You might want to start with more questions and less overly zealous patriotism.

I did ask questions. I just don't like it when people try to convince me that KMA is JMA and that KMA sucks.

Originally Posted by Errant108

What do you want to know?

I want to know how Shipalgi in KOrea is trained, how they spar, how practical it is and the history behind it. When was Shipalgi "invented" and who was it trained by? What is it like stylistically?

Originally Posted by Errant108

t's all good if you do it for the right reasons.

And what reasons would those be? I'm speaking in terms of strict practicality. Korea has had indigenous martial arts prior to the occupation and I know you know that. I want to explore these preoccupation martial arts as well as discvoer the most effective ones. Taekkyon and sisireum are two that come to mind.

Originally Posted by Errant108

And those are barely practiced outside Korea at all, compared to the 99% of the crap that has spread around the world.

It is unfortunately, but KMA has a lot of burden to carry and many hurdles to overcome.

The mere fact that the few TKD schools that continue to teach either old school or practical TKD is virtually nil compared to the mammoth political organizations that are literally choking Korean karate to death.

I'm well aware of the fact that only the crap of modern KMA has spread outside of Korea. The ITF and WTF make me fucking pissed and I just hope that soon the bastards wake the **** up and fix what was once a decent martial art. I just dont' get why TKD was allowed to go down the shittube. Really frustrates me. The only thing that we can hope for as KMA-ists is to allow little known arts like Taekkyeon and Gongkwonyusul to flourish orconvince everyone to force to WTF and ITF to get their goddamn act together.

Originally Posted by Errant108

That Twinkie would probably beat you down and choke you out if you were given the opportunity to say it to his face, so I doubt he's going to try to convince you that Koreans are shitty fighters.

However, the fact is that the majority of modern KMA practice is not centered around creating good, practical-based fighters.

He IS trying to convince me that KMA sucks.

Originally Posted by Errant108

Korea does have a shitty martial past, due to the fact that Koreans spurned their own martial arts and let them die out since NeoConfucianism said it was beneath a gentleman to fight. That is the legacy of pre-Occupation KMA.

You're talking late Josun era. And even at that you're forgetting all of the villagers who most likely continued their martial art practices in secret.NeoConfucianism was for the wealthy.

Do Gojosun, Buyeo, Goguryo, Goryeo, Shilla, Baekjae, Balhae mean anything to you?

Originally Posted by Errant108

Empty hand training in the Chosun military was very limited, because more time was spent on weapons training.

Of the 24 sections of the Muyedobotongji, only one addresses unarmed combat, and the authors stress that this is merely to prepare trainees for the rigors of weapon combat. The form taught is short, only

Oh, and that form is based off of a form created by a Chinese general based off of several different styles of Long Fist.

So, if you want purely Korean pre-Occupation unarmed MA, you have Taegyeon and Ssireum. These are not actually martial arts but combative folk practices, like boxing and wrestling.

Pre-Occupation unarmed martial arts were either Chinese chuanfa or Korean adaptations of Chinese chuanfa.

Again you're only talking about Josun era. JOsun era is only a fraction of Korea's history. So you mentioned Taekkyeon and ssireum. So then I'm gonna ask you. How practical do you think they are?

Korean chuanfa? What exactly is that? Iwant to know the preoccupation KMA history.