rofl are you trying to start a third front...
Right, here's an issue with your analogy: With learning to speak there is constant feedback. If you do it improperly, you fail- perhaps catastrophically. You have immediate needs that have to be communicated and you develop the ability to communicate through a dialogue. The setting, the method, and the instrument of instruction are one and the same.
Originally Posted by kenpostudent
If you strike a heavy bag, let alone a sparring partner, incorrectly you will have instant feedback. I don't see where that happens with kata. Your instructor can say "raise your fist higher", etc., but -if you're using the kata to perfect techniques- he's addressing something internal to you from a totally different perspective. It's also far from instant even with the most attentive instructor. You then have to make a conscious note "okay, I raise my fist higher" as opposed to and instant pain="wowee I'd better keep my thumb down or wrist straight" with a mistake on bagwork.
Have you ever heard someone who has been severely hearing-impaired from birth speak, if they are capable of it? They sound unusual; the more cynical would say "retarded." They have lacked the instant feedback mechanism of hearing their own voice or those of others (and their responses) directly, which makes for a significant challenge in learning to speak properly.
I don't think the actual implications of your linguistic analogy are necessarily positive.
EDIt- You might say "so do both." Fine with me- I'm also not addressing the other alleged aspects of kata such as health/meditative/etc. benefits which could exist, as well as their function as 3-D syllabi, which I think may have been the most important aspect of them. But what's the proportion? How much is too much? When is it about establishing a false sense of x? If you say, "well, these don't teach proper technique in themselves, you also should x,y, and z" I think the onus is on you to say exactly what they are doing.
Last edited by ironlurker; 6/20/2007 12:18am at .
You make excellent observations...but remember, I get the feedback when I spar. That's not the purpose of forms. I'm not saying do forms at the expense of everything else. I spar far more than I practice kata. Also, kata does not incorporate movements that I will never use. I use many of the movements in kata in sparring. If your art has movements in its katas that don't work, find a new art. If you don't like forms, I understand. I don't like them much either. That doesn't make them useless. I really don't like eating my girlfriend's ***** all of the time either, but it has a function.
Originally Posted by ironlurker
I can perhaps shed a bit of light on why kata might be a good thing. As a late-20 something 'big' girl, I had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how to move in balance , how to throw a combination of punches, or, well, much of anything. While I completely see the point about the uselessness of kata for someone who has advanced past the, "punch? what?" phase, it gave me a jump-start on the idea of movement that didn't have me tripping over my own two feet...and made the first sparring and parter-working much more productive.
For a n00b, anyway, kata was a good intro to good movement--and good balance and movement keeps me from falling over when I don't want to.
Exactly. Dead training is generally a brief introduction that gets you ready for live training, which gets you ready for the sparring or teh str33t. You should only be doing as much dead training as necessary to move onto live training.
Originally Posted by S'Lou
It's a solo drill. Thats all there is too it, devoting too much class time is a waste of training partners really.
Doing it by yourself is great if you dont have partners, and great to look at principles before trying them out on the heavy bag.
And stop argueing with the Kempo guy, he's an easy target so blah.
Your probably going to puke when i say this but.....
Originally Posted by EternalRage
Alot of movement in kata, atleast the primary kata of a style(most styles have 3 main kata, the rest are usually added in) Teach specific body mechanics.
For instance, in seisan kata, there is a drop with a vertical elbow. Though i find vertical elbows dont do much damage, this sinking motion, added with hip rotation, gives it a bit more oomph. Im TRYING to work it into combinations from the clinch, but well, it needs work. Ill get it hopefully.
I actually practice it with a partner or hitting a bag. But the mechanics behind it are from kata.
And no, i dont spend 20 minutes of class time doing kata, nor even at home, i have the principle in in mind, and actually practice it.
TKD kata is worthless. I did close to 4 years of kata (we call it patterns) and that's my opinion of it. I don't know about other katas but I think they're the same from what I've seen of karate kata.
I'm not going to waste my time debating why kata is worthless, because I know it is.
What I'm going to say is what kata should be instead.
Kata should be a way of documenting proven techniques and combinations /defenses that has worked, and structuring them in such a way that they take you from the simple (jab, low kick), to the intermediate (jab, cross, switch, left kick) to the advanced (jab, pivot, cross, hook, switch, kick). It can also cover defenses (eg. left block, right middle roundhouse). It can be woven together into a kind of flow drill of combinations.
I'll give a simple example.
Step forward, jab, low kick, land kicking foot, pivot counterclockwise to avoid return kick, jab, cross, pivot left, knee, push away.
Obvoiusly you can string longer combinations together to form more complex katas. The difference between these kinds of kata and traditional kata, is that these movements can be used in a real fight, and practising them often will ingrain these movements into your muscle memory.
Another thing that I've found useful from traditional arts is kihon. Repetitive doing of an action, be it a kick, or some other technique, over and over and over again. Stuff that can be used for this includes
- push kicks
- front kicks
- roundhouse kicks
I've found that kihon helps you to build flexibility and the stabilising muscles needed to execute a particular technique. It really helped me to improve my push kicks.
THere is alot of bullshit kata in many style that do kata.
In baji for instance, there are only 3 main forms, but more were added(Asia, if im making a mistake, please correct me)
In your TKD, how did you know what was what? I bet you spent more time learning new forms then looking at them.
7. "Kata isn't supposed to be used directly in a fight. it contains principles."
How do you train the principle of a double leg takedown without doing either:
a) A double leg takedown or,
b) A part of the double leg takedown.