Page 6 of 99 First ... 23456789101656 ... Last
  1. #51
    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction. Join us... or die
    EternalRage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Long Island
    Posts
    3,360
    Style
    Bajillion Joo Jizzu
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    rofl are you trying to start a third front...

  2. #52
    ironlurker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Arkham
    Posts
    586
    Style
    jkd
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent

    Look at it like this: when we learn to write, first we learn the alphabet. Then we learn to form letters into words. Then we form words into sentences. Once we can use sentences, we string them together into paragrapghs. Finally, we learn to string paragraphs together into essays and discourses. We had to learn to write through a structure, though. We didn't just start stringing words together in a haphazard pattern. However, none of us speak or write only using the rigid sentences that we copied by rote when we first learned to write and read. Eventually, by reading and studying the works of others, we learned the principles of writing and are now able to formulate our own ideas. Kata is one method of providing the structure of learning to string the letters and words (individual techniques, punches, kicks, foot maneuvers) into sentences and paragraphs of motion. No one really fights with a kata, anymore than we speak by quoting Dr. Suess, even if his books were some of the first that we read.
    Right, here's an issue with your analogy: With learning to speak there is constant feedback. If you do it improperly, you fail- perhaps catastrophically. You have immediate needs that have to be communicated and you develop the ability to communicate through a dialogue. The setting, the method, and the instrument of instruction are one and the same.

    If you strike a heavy bag, let alone a sparring partner, incorrectly you will have instant feedback. I don't see where that happens with kata. Your instructor can say "raise your fist higher", etc., but -if you're using the kata to perfect techniques- he's addressing something internal to you from a totally different perspective. It's also far from instant even with the most attentive instructor. You then have to make a conscious note "okay, I raise my fist higher" as opposed to and instant pain="wowee I'd better keep my thumb down or wrist straight" with a mistake on bagwork.

    Have you ever heard someone who has been severely hearing-impaired from birth speak, if they are capable of it? They sound unusual; the more cynical would say "retarded." They have lacked the instant feedback mechanism of hearing their own voice or those of others (and their responses) directly, which makes for a significant challenge in learning to speak properly.

    I don't think the actual implications of your linguistic analogy are necessarily positive.

    EDIt- You might say "so do both." Fine with me- I'm also not addressing the other alleged aspects of kata such as health/meditative/etc. benefits which could exist, as well as their function as 3-D syllabi, which I think may have been the most important aspect of them. But what's the proportion? How much is too much? When is it about establishing a false sense of x? If you say, "well, these don't teach proper technique in themselves, you also should x,y, and z" I think the onus is on you to say exactly what they are doing.
    Last edited by ironlurker; 6/20/2007 12:18am at .

  3. #53

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    502
    Style
    American Kenpo
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ironlurker
    Right, here's an issue with your analogy: With learning to speak there is constant feedback. If you do it improperly, you fail- perhaps catastrophically. You have immediate needs that have to be communicated and you develop the ability to communicate through a dialogue. The setting, the method, and the instrument of instruction are one and the same.

    If you strike a heavy bag, let alone a sparring partner, incorrectly you will have instant feedback. I don't see where that happens with kata. Your instructor can say "raise your fist higher", etc., but -if you're using the kata to perfect techniques- he's addressing something internal to you from a totally different perspective. It's also far from instant even with the most attentive instructor. You then have to make a conscious note "okay, I raise my fist higher" as opposed to and instant pain="wowee I'd better keep my thumb down or wrist straight" with a mistake on bagwork.

    Have you ever heard someone who has been severely hearing-impaired from birth speak, if they are capable of it? They sound unusual; the more cynical would say "retarded." They have lacked the instant feedback mechanism of hearing their own voice or those of others (and their responses) directly, which makes for a significant challenge in learning to speak properly.

    I don't think the actual implications of your linguistic analogy are necessarily positive.
    You make excellent observations...but remember, I get the feedback when I spar. That's not the purpose of forms. I'm not saying do forms at the expense of everything else. I spar far more than I practice kata. Also, kata does not incorporate movements that I will never use. I use many of the movements in kata in sparring. If your art has movements in its katas that don't work, find a new art. If you don't like forms, I understand. I don't like them much either. That doesn't make them useless. I really don't like eating my girlfriend's ***** all of the time either, but it has a function.

  4. #54

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    17
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can perhaps shed a bit of light on why kata might be a good thing. As a late-20 something 'big' girl, I had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how to move in balance , how to throw a combination of punches, or, well, much of anything. While I completely see the point about the uselessness of kata for someone who has advanced past the, "punch? what?" phase, it gave me a jump-start on the idea of movement that didn't have me tripping over my own two feet...and made the first sparring and parter-working much more productive.

    For a n00b, anyway, kata was a good intro to good movement--and good balance and movement keeps me from falling over when I don't want to.

  5. #55
    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction. Join us... or die
    EternalRage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Long Island
    Posts
    3,360
    Style
    Bajillion Joo Jizzu
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by S'Lou
    I can perhaps shed a bit of light on why kata might be a good thing. As a late-20 something 'big' girl, I had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how to move in balance , how to throw a combination of punches, or, well, much of anything. While I completely see the point about the uselessness of kata for someone who has advanced past the, "punch? what?" phase, it gave me a jump-start on the idea of movement that didn't have me tripping over my own two feet...and made the first sparring and parter-working much more productive.

    For a n00b, anyway, kata was a good intro to good movement--and good balance and movement keeps me from falling over when I don't want to.
    Exactly. Dead training is generally a brief introduction that gets you ready for live training, which gets you ready for the sparring or teh str33t. You should only be doing as much dead training as necessary to move onto live training.

  6. #56

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta,
    Posts
    1,996
    Style
    karate,MMA(between gyms)
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's a solo drill. Thats all there is too it, devoting too much class time is a waste of training partners really.

    Doing it by yourself is great if you dont have partners, and great to look at principles before trying them out on the heavy bag.




    And stop argueing with the Kempo guy, he's an easy target so blah.

  7. #57

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta,
    Posts
    1,996
    Style
    karate,MMA(between gyms)
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    Exactly. Dead training is generally a brief introduction that gets you ready for live training, which gets you ready for the sparring or teh str33t. You should only be doing as much dead training as necessary to move onto live training.
    Your probably going to puke when i say this but.....

    Alot of movement in kata, atleast the primary kata of a style(most styles have 3 main kata, the rest are usually added in) Teach specific body mechanics.

    For instance, in seisan kata, there is a drop with a vertical elbow. Though i find vertical elbows dont do much damage, this sinking motion, added with hip rotation, gives it a bit more oomph. Im TRYING to work it into combinations from the clinch, but well, it needs work. Ill get it hopefully.

    I actually practice it with a partner or hitting a bag. But the mechanics behind it are from kata.

    And no, i dont spend 20 minutes of class time doing kata, nor even at home, i have the principle in in mind, and actually practice it.

  8. #58

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,083
    Style
    Muay Thai, Boxing
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    TKD kata is worthless. I did close to 4 years of kata (we call it patterns) and that's my opinion of it. I don't know about other katas but I think they're the same from what I've seen of karate kata.

    I'm not going to waste my time debating why kata is worthless, because I know it is.

    What I'm going to say is what kata should be instead.

    Kata should be a way of documenting proven techniques and combinations /defenses that has worked, and structuring them in such a way that they take you from the simple (jab, low kick), to the intermediate (jab, cross, switch, left kick) to the advanced (jab, pivot, cross, hook, switch, kick). It can also cover defenses (eg. left block, right middle roundhouse). It can be woven together into a kind of flow drill of combinations.

    I'll give a simple example.

    Kata start:
    Step forward, jab, low kick, land kicking foot, pivot counterclockwise to avoid return kick, jab, cross, pivot left, knee, push away.
    Kata end.

    Obvoiusly you can string longer combinations together to form more complex katas. The difference between these kinds of kata and traditional kata, is that these movements can be used in a real fight, and practising them often will ingrain these movements into your muscle memory.

    Another thing that I've found useful from traditional arts is kihon. Repetitive doing of an action, be it a kick, or some other technique, over and over and over again. Stuff that can be used for this includes
    - push kicks
    - front kicks
    - roundhouse kicks
    - knees
    - elbows
    etc.

    I've found that kihon helps you to build flexibility and the stabilising muscles needed to execute a particular technique. It really helped me to improve my push kicks.

  9. #59

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta,
    Posts
    1,996
    Style
    karate,MMA(between gyms)
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    THere is alot of bullshit kata in many style that do kata.

    In baji for instance, there are only 3 main forms, but more were added(Asia, if im making a mistake, please correct me)

    In your TKD, how did you know what was what? I bet you spent more time learning new forms then looking at them.

  10. #60
    Virus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6,964
    Style
    Judo
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    7. "Kata isn't supposed to be used directly in a fight. it contains principles."

    How do you train the principle of a double leg takedown without doing either:

    a) A double leg takedown or,
    b) A part of the double leg takedown.

Page 6 of 99 First ... 23456789101656 ... Last

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO