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  1. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2007 8:55am

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     Style: Improv comedy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bosco


    Downward sweeping blocks ?
    The lunge punch ?
    The leg throw ?

    Kata teaching you this ? For someone wh does BJJ how can you be so silly ? MMA events have proven time and time again that this downward blocking or lunge punch rubbish does not work. No way. The striking in MMA or K-1 looks like Kickboxing. Even fighters like Bas Rutten or Andy Hug who have a Karate background, their standup looks like Kickboxing. No where do I see any Kata moves come into play.
    Do you really train? really?

    If so for how long?

    Do you train a striking art?

    Do you spar with striking, GnP, takedowns and submissions?

    I ask because you sound really ignorant. Like you have almost no real training, what training you have is very limited and that you have never sparred using strikes, take downs, GnP and submissions at once.

    Re downward sweeping block.

    Take your fist put it up near your cheek like in a boxing stance, and swing it down into your thigh as hard as you can?

    If you don't want to and are in the Toronto area I'll do it for you. You can kick me as hard as you like I get to check your low leg kicks - Neko ashi Dachi/ cat stance

    Hammer fost your leg if it comes in near the upper thigh, Gedan Bari / downward sweeping block

    Or from waist to shoulder lever I get to smash the top of your foot with my elbow ( amove I have seen break another persons foot.) Inside Middle area block or Chudan Uke

    all moves contained in Kata's I do all moves I practice in Kata and all moves I have pulled of in hard contact continuous sparring.

    Sparing that involves kicking, punching, takedowns, GnP and submissions

    As far as downward sweeping blocks in K-1 and MMA I see them all the time, the difference is their not used as strikes but to scoop the leg and throw or trip.

    As for the single leg throw ? Your off the mark. No amount of Kata or dead patterns will show you how to perform any sort of throw or grappling move. None. If it's grappling you want you go to a Judo/Wrestling/BJJ club. The days of people exploring hidden grappling techniques in kata are over. Serious fighters are not falling for this anymore.
    Is there some sort of MMA cliche book for the dim witted that you get this from?

    Ichi ashi Nage is not the same single leg throw as a wrestler does

    This is not a good photo but it's the best one I could find



    The stance used for this throw is Kiba dachi - horse stance

    The main points of using it for a throw are.

    Position - being sideways
    depth - Changing levels
    Penetration, geting the front leg in on show lace penetration

    Now I know you are dying to say.

    yeah but you need to practice this in a resisting manner and grappling situation to turn it into a practical and usable throw.

    Which I will preemptive answer with

    No fucking **** Sherlock - Captain obvious

    But when you don't have a partner you can drill it on your own

    The kata helps your muscle memory of changing levels and getting the shoe lace penetration in.

    Much in that same way wrestlers do solo drill for shots and changing levels.

    of course as a wrestler you know this right!!!

    sols drills / kata can't be done with Alive resistance BECAUSE THEY"RE SOLO DRILLS

    They can be practical however if you understand what it is yo're doing and not approaching it is dance

    Which brings me to Bunkai

    Bunkai means the practical or hidden application of move.

    To me one of the biggest problems in eastern MA is in the imprecise translation

    The true translation as explained to me is practical techniques not readily apparent.

    Not readily apparent, hidden and secret have a similar connotation but different meanings.

    There's no mystical understanding just a practical approach to kata that is developed through sparring and cross training.

    The fact that tons of "sensei's" like to make it into some sort of uber secret approach and use it to justify focusing way to much on kata is sad but doesn't mean anything in this argument.

    Virus wanted a kata that was like a shadow boxing drill in that it had techniques that I actually use. I gave him one and how I use it practically and in sparring.

    Now having taken the time to write this how about you actually respond intelligently instead of missing the points and telling me to spar more
  2. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2007 9:04am

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    I also forgot

    Lunge Punch

    Watch Tito Vs Chuck 2 and see Chuck drop down and hit Tito in the bread basket with a lunge punch.
  3. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Y SO SRIUS?

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2007 6:54pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soju-Joe
    I ask because you sound really ignorant.
    Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so.

    :)
  4. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/30/2007 7:02pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    the comparison to shadowboxing or double leg shoot drills is to the aspect of them being solo drills performed "in the air" and is a direct response to the idiotic comments by MrBosco who dismisses Kata as being useless because it's done as a solo drill int the air.
    This argument is cycling through the typical arguments, and I don't know why but I feel the need to toss my 2 cents into the mess in argument to your comment here.

    Yes they are both done "in the air." It is a valid pointing out of correlation, but that does not make them one and the same. A double leg drill can be done verbatim on a compliant partner, a fully resistant adversary, and a fully resistant adversary who is also highly trained. How many typical kata motions can say the same? Not to mention if you don't drill that double leg move on a real person you will never be able to use it competently.

    Shadow Boxing while done in the air, and is never meant to be applied on a partner, I find to be something that can be done without and really is just a warm-up drill where you can try and visualize your opponent while mixing up your drills. Regardless though, the motions used there are directly combat related as well.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  5. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/30/2007 7:05pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I still find it amusing how Mr. Bosco is catching so much ****. Sure he's a bit more confrontational with his views than others, but he seems to be the scapegoat of the day.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  6. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/30/2007 7:31pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    Here's some Judo Kata

    Why don't you brak it down and tell me why it's crap.

    and remember know one is saying kata is a replacement for sparring or randori.

    And yes this is still kata
    It is crap because there is no aliveness. No aliveness = no training. As a demonstration tool to display their techniques it's fine. But the unnecessary formality, and completely flacid uke does not make spending much time working like this worth anyones time.

    Granted though I wouldn't call this "kata" anyway, as it's more of a compliant drilling session. So if I'm this critical of something that is leaps and bounds more useful than typical kata or forms....well you can use your imagination as to what I'd say about those.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  7. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2007 7:33pm

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     Style: Improv comedy

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    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    This argument is cycling through the typical arguments, and I don't know why but I feel the need to toss my 2 cents into the mess in argument to your comment here.

    Yes they are both done "in the air." It is a valid pointing out of correlation, but that does not make them one and the same. A double leg drill can be done verbatim on a compliant partner, a fully resistant adversary, and a fully resistant adversary who is also highly trained. How many typical kata motions can say the same? Not to mention if you don't drill that double leg move on a real person you will never be able to use it competently.

    Shadow Boxing while done in the air, and is never meant to be applied on a partner, I find to be something that can be done without and really is just a warm-up drill where you can try and visualize your opponent while mixing up your drills. Regardless though, the motions used there are directly combat related as well.

    Oy Vey

    The comparison was done in response to Mr Bosco's criticisim of kata, whose entire arguement was that kata was no good cause it was done in the air and everyone should spar and grapple instead.

    He said nothing about other drills or comparing or contrasting it to shadwoboxing or shoot drills.

    Just that it was punchign in the air and therefore useless. Period

    myself and Omega tried to point out that plenty of stuff like shadowboxing and shoot drills are also done in the air. And that a solo drill done in the air is not invalid because of it being a solo drill done in the air.

    I don't blame you for not reading the entiry of this thread.

    But you're defending an idiot.

    as far as the other stuff about practical technique and the need to apply it on a real resistant opponent. No one is saying other wise.
  8. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2007 7:38pm

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     Style: Improv comedy

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    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    It is crap because there is no aliveness. No aliveness = no training. As a demonstration tool to display their techniques it's fine. But the unnecessary formality, and completely flacid uke does not make spending much time working like this worth anyones time.
    The statement about aliveness is only aplicable to two man Kata.

    Single person solo drills by their nature

    Granted though I wouldn't call this "kata" anyway, as it's more of a compliant drilling session. So if I'm this critical of something that is leaps and bounds more useful than typical kata or forms....well you can use your imagination as to what I'd say about those.
    Again we're discussing single person drills

    As far as formality goes are you talking abotu bowing or the fact that in comparison to let's say shadowboxing your doing the exact same thing over again?
  9. AAAhmed46 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2007 7:45pm


     Style: karate,MMA(between gyms)

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njxuc...elated&search=


    Just for eye candy in this thread......
  10. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/30/2007 7:56pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    Oy Vey

    The comparison was done in response to Mr Bosco's criticisim of kata, whose entire arguement was that kata was no good cause it was done in the air and everyone should spar and grapple instead.

    He said nothing about other drills or comparing or contrasting it to shadwoboxing or shoot drills.

    Just that it was punchign in the air and therefore useless. Period

    myself and Omega tried to point out that plenty of stuff like shadowboxing and shoot drills are also done in the air. And that a solo drill done in the air is not invalid because of it being a solo drill done in the air.

    I don't blame you for not reading the entiry of this thread.

    But you're defending an idiot.

    as far as the other stuff about practical technique and the need to apply it on a real resistant opponent. No one is saying other wise.
    I am not defending MrBosco, just finding it amusing that he is basically stating what probably a few dozen other random people on here would be saying verbatim had it not been for Omega putting his foot down in this thread. Not that I agree with those particular arguments and lines of logic, but I certainly am no fan of kata.

    Simply put, IMO the entire theory of gaining fighting prowess from kata practice is fundamentally flawed. At best you are spending your time doing something trying to accomplish something that could be better accomplished in far better efficiency another way, and at worst you are completely wasting your time doing something asinine.

    Attempts as I see it by many on here -who badly wish to gain Omega's good graces- to blur the line between practical drills and drawn out implausible kata patterns isn't exactly doing anyone a service, and is just making it more difficult call BS when we see it.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

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