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  1. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 10:02pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath
    I have done sparring with multiple opponents back in the Dark Age and it never, ever looked like kata. In fact, we were told to move into a position where one person blocked the other so that we never had to deal with two people at different angles.

    Kata, in addition to being entirely predetermined, has no threat of failure. If you miss a cover or leave your jaw exposed while sparring, you get clipped. In kata the only punishment is the fact you're not making the best use of your time.
    Fair enough. That is why I also spar quite often. You have just set up a false dilema. It's either/or...in reality it's not...it's both....go back to school and learn how to argue. I recommend a logic class.
  2. EternalRage is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 10:04pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    So if I run as part of my training does that mean I am conditioning my body to run in a fight?
    If I jump rope for 15 minutes a day does that mean that in a fight I will suddenly get the urge to do double dutch?



    Of course it doesnt.

    Try and look at the argument from both sides. You can concede that if done correctly (I have defined this over and over) that they can have some benefit.
    Im not saying that you cant do these things [the benefits from kata] from another source. Its just another tool in the set for training. It shouldnt be dismissed out of hand.

    Wheres the dead horse icon when I need it?
    We already covered this in the other thread in the Styles Forum.

    Running is not a training method for fighting. It is for conditioning - aerobic endurance, leg strength, etc. It serves its purpose.

    Jump rope is not a training method for fighting. It is for conditioning - agility and speed. It serves its purpose

    Forms were meant to be a training method to increase fighting skill via a prearranged set of fighting techniques. You have already agreed, in this thread and the other, that for fighting, forms are pretty much useless now.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    We all agree that training kata wont teach you how to fight.
    Fine. So forms do not fullfill their purpose. You tried to justify their continued use by talking about secondary benefits like focus, core strengthening, whatever. I never claimed you couldnt get those benefits from forms. I said those secondary benefits happen to be primary ones in other exercises that are better suited to training those things, so there's no need for the forms.

    So in summary, typical KMA forms are useless for fighting. Any secondary benefits you can get from them, you get from other exercises that are geared towards training those solely.

    If it was just that, then we could keep forms. But the fact of the matter is, even if you train those secondary benefits to a reasonable degree, you're still doing so through useless techniques, or techniques executed in a ridiculous fashion. By the mantra, "you fight the way you train", you can conclude that it's not worth it. Basically you're using an outdated, inefficient training method to cram bullshido down your throat.
    Last edited by EternalRage; 6/19/2007 10:18pm at .
  3. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 10:05pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kickcatcher
    So what is it that you train for where kata or forms (whatever) are somehow better at??? LARPing???

    A few years back I used to argue against Kata and 1/3 step compliant drills all the damn time, but I grew bored of it. Somewhere in the meantime the internet "old guard" of TMA-trollers has moved on and it's suddenly become acceptible to do kata again. Bloody stupidity that's what it is.
    I also do bodywork against fully resisting opponents who do very unpredictible things. You have also set up a false dilema. Really, you can spar, practice against resisting opponents AND do kata....I can chew gum while doing all three, too. Ain't coordination grand.
  4. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 10:10pm

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     Style: Kata

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bollox do you chew gum, at least not during sparring unless you do that silly non-contact or light contact stuff.

    Anyway why train two things one of which hampers the other? Kata is training your body to do the opposite things to sparring - just do the sparring.
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
  5. kenpostudent is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 10:13pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath
    Multiple attackers who all follow a specific pattern?


    You aren't anticipating anything. The kata is a series of predetermined moves. Any anticipation comes from you playing make-believe.


    I hope you're joking. Kata is only useful for fighting multiple opponents if they're in your mind and you're in a padded cell. Furthermore, how are you going to do any of those complex blocking techniques in a straightjacket?
    You are correct...you don't anticipate anything in kata...but how can you learn to respond to an attack from the rear or the flank without first practicing to turn to the rear or the flank and do a technique? You have to practice the movements before you can practice applying them on a body. I'm not saying katas alone are a good training tool. If all you practice are katas, you're a dancer not a martial artist. You have to spar, you have to do hard body work. You have to learn to take a hit a give a hit. However, I'm arguing that kata has its place...a very limited place, but a place nonetheless. In bjj and kickboxing, they would have no value. For kenpo, they do. If you don't study kenpo, don't do forms.
  6. MartialArtN00b is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 10:21pm


     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kickcatcher
    Post a video of what you consider "good" solo kata so we can laugh at your expense
    Ill bite.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx0V3jgFYzk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqCuHWhURmk

    You can train kata to a reasonably same difficulty if you know what youre doing. The previous are mostly ground transitions. But theres a whole range of standing posture/transitions that are similar to katas to an extent. So it isnt that hard to make the jump.
    And if doing half the stuff in the previous vid doesnt improve your base, strength and flow to a certain degree... well thats your problem.
  7. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 10:22pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent
    how can you learn to respond to an attack from the rear or the flank without first practicing to turn to the rear or the flank and do a technique? You have to practice the movements before you can practice applying them on a body.
    Sounds like you haven't tried multiple opponent sparring - like anyone would ever turn in the same manner as kata. And anyway you could just drop it into shadow boxing.
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
  8. EternalRage is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 10:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent
    You are correct...you don't anticipate anything in kata...but how can you learn to respond to an attack from the rear or the flank without first practicing to turn to the rear or the flank and do a technique? You have to practice the movements before you can practice applying them on a body. I'm not saying katas alone are a good training tool. If all you practice are katas, you're a dancer not a martial artist. You have to spar, you have to do hard body work. You have to learn to take a hit a give a hit. However, I'm arguing that kata has its place...a very limited place, but a place nonetheless. In bjj and kickboxing, they would have no value. For kenpo, they do. If you don't study kenpo, don't do forms.
    You're basically using the same argument as oldman. You're saying forms are useful because they teach you some secondary benefit like footwork. Well that's fine and dandy except that while you are training ways to turn around, you're using flowery, silly techniques that you wouldn't use in a fight. You might be picking up your footwork, but at the expense you're drilling useless prearranged bullshido into your body.

    Look at it like this: when we learn to write, first we learn the alphabet. Then we learn to form letters into words. Then we form words into sentences. Once we can use sentences, we string them together into paragrapghs. Finally, we learn to string paragraphs together into essays and discourses. We had to learn to write through a structure, though. We didn't just start stringing words together in a haphazard pattern. However, none of us speak or write only using the rigid sentences that we copied by rote when we first learned to write and read. Eventually, by reading and studying the works of others, we learned the principles of writing and are now able to formulate our own ideas. Kata is one method of providing the structure of learning to string the letters and words (individual techniques, punches, kicks, foot maneuvers) into sentences and paragraphs of motion. No one really fights with a kata, anymore than we speak by quoting Dr. Suess, even if his books were some of the first that we read.
    If your forms are typical ones where you're doing things like "mountain blocks" or "inside outside block in back stance", you might be learning how to make sentences (analagous to whatever footwork you feel you are getting out of it), but you're doing it with gibberish (techniques that won't work). Is that worth it? Especially when there are exercises that can work your footwork and angles better, without training techniques you will never use?
  9. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 10:24pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent
    You are correct...you don't anticipate anything in kata...but how can you learn to respond to an attack from the rear or the flank without first practicing to turn to the rear or the flank and do a technique? You have to practice the movements before you can practice applying them on a body.
    There is no attack in kata. Again, rubber room. You may be learning movement, balance and rudimentary footwork, but it's not even close to approximating multiple opponents. Telling yourself this is either strained rationalization or a setup for a painful humiliation.

    In bjj and kickboxing, they would have no value. For kenpo, they do. If you don't study kenpo, don't do forms.
    I think the real answer is don't study kempo.
  10. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 11:30pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BSDaemon
    On the contrary, Kata teaches you to pull your punches. Your body learns this in order to prevent you from hyperextending your joints or falling off balance when you are striking the air. By snapping your strikes out in the error you are teaching your muscles to resist their own power.

    In addition, your actions in Kata are triggered based on the previous move in a pre-programed sequence, while the trigger events you really want are the actions of your opponent.


    You are correct that Kata is good for training your muscle memory, the only problem is that it's training you to do the wrong thing.

    Dude you just described shadowboxing.
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