228175 Bullies, 4719 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 31 to 40 of 985
Page 4 of 99 FirstFirst 1234 56781454 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. HonkyTonkMan is offline
    HonkyTonkMan's Avatar

    Y SO SRIUS?

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Black Belt City, Mississippi
    Posts
    5,434

    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 9:06pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent
    I'm not sure that a comparison between shadowboxing and kata is comparing apples to apples. First of all, kata simulates fighting multiple attackers. Its value lies in defending at different angles. In a ring, you can pretty much always assume that an attack will come from 12 o'clock or an angle close to 12 (unless the opponent takes your back in MMA). Kata trains one to anticipate attacks from the flank, the rear, rear 45's, ect. This very fact makes kata useless for training to fight in a ring. I don't know of any sporting event (WWE excluded, and not really a sport) where one man can fight multiple opponents. Kata is useful to train responding to attacks on angles for street self defense because it is reactive in nature. However, I would agree that most katas are pretty worthless. Kata is only as good as it is designed. The concept is not bad, but many katas are. How else could you train to anticipate attacks from off angles by oneself? You would need to spar with multiple opponents so get a similar effect.

    Kata is also good for training the memory. It's good for muscle memory, too. It also an efficient way to train foot maneuvers and switching between stances at off angles.

    Wow, even I dont agree with you.

    Just about everything you said is wrong. The highlighted part is all that you got right.

    Hope you have a thick skin.

    Welcome to Bullshido
  2. HonkyTonkMan is offline
    HonkyTonkMan's Avatar

    Y SO SRIUS?

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Black Belt City, Mississippi
    Posts
    5,434

    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 9:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    You're probably going to respond with something like "well katas also train other things like focus, breathing, core strengthening, etc". The reality is that for anything you can train through kata aside from fighting techniques, you can find a much BETTER exercise for in conditioning, pad work, sparring, and anything else that's live and resisting. Even if it gives you various benefits at once, the fact that you are programming useless techniques into yourself makes practice of the typical martial arts form totally not worth it.

    Also, define "silly looking drills in bjj".
    So if I run as part of my training does that mean I am conditioning my body to run in a fight?
    If I jump rope for 15 minutes a day does that mean that in a fight I will suddenly get the urge to do double dutch?



    Of course it doesnt.

    Try and look at the argument from both sides. You can concede that if done correctly (I have defined this over and over) that they can have some benefit.
    Im not saying that you cant do these things [the benefits from kata] from another source. Its just another tool in the set for training. It shouldnt be dismissed out of hand.

    Wheres the dead horse icon when I need it?
  3. Shuma-Gorath is offline
    Shuma-Gorath's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    6,608

    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 9:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent
    I'm not sure that a comparison between shadowboxing and kata is comparing apples to apples. First of all, kata simulates fighting multiple attackers.
    Multiple attackers who all follow a specific pattern?

    Its value lies in defending at different angles. In a ring, you can pretty much always assume that an attack will come from 12 o'clock or an angle close to 12 (unless the opponent takes your back in MMA). Kata trains one to anticipate attacks from the flank, the rear, rear 45's, ect. This very fact makes kata useless for training to fight in a ring.
    You aren't anticipating anything. The kata is a series of predetermined moves. Any anticipation comes from you playing make-believe.

    I don't know of any sporting event (WWE excluded, and not really a sport) where one man can fight multiple opponents. Kata is useful to train responding to attacks on angles for street self defense because it is reactive in nature.
    I hope you're joking. Kata is only useful for fighting multiple opponents if they're in your mind and you're in a padded cell. Furthermore, how are you going to do any of those complex blocking techniques in a straightjacket?
  4. Fantasy Warrior is offline
    Fantasy Warrior's Avatar

    Misguided style basher

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,714

    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 9:32pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent
    Training for the ring or for a sports-based art is different. If I wanted to train for the ring, I would abandon kenpo training methods and spend more time training like a boxer or kickboxer.
    So what is it that you train for where kata or forms (whatever) are somehow better at??? LARPing???

    A few years back I used to argue against Kata and 1/3 step compliant drills all the damn time, but I grew bored of it. Somewhere in the meantime the internet "old guard" of TMA-trollers has moved on and it's suddenly become acceptible to do kata again. Bloody stupidity that's what it is.
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
  5. kenpostudent is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    502

    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 9:36pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kata trains offense and defense at many different angles. Bag drills don't train that because the bag is right in front of you. Most of the skills in kata don't apply to ring training because fighters in the ring are usually right in front of you or off to the 45, if they really got the drop on you. I don't know of anything that trains the same attributes as kata except sparring with multiple opponents. How do you deal with an opponent behind you and one in front of you? How do you train to fight two opponents on your flanks? What about one opponent at 12 o'clock and another at 7:30? Katas can simulate those situations if they are trained properly. How would you train for those situations?
  6. BSDaemon is offline
    BSDaemon's Avatar

    Being Sublime Daily

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Boulder
    Posts
    2,024

    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 9:42pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpostudent
    Kata is also good for training the memory. It's good for muscle memory, too. It also an efficient way to train foot maneuvers and switching between stances at off angles.
    On the contrary, Kata teaches you to pull your punches. Your body learns this in order to prevent you from hyperextending your joints or falling off balance when you are striking the air. By snapping your strikes out in the error you are teaching your muscles to resist their own power.

    In addition, your actions in Kata are triggered based on the previous move in a pre-programed sequence, while the trigger events you really want are the actions of your opponent.


    You are correct that Kata is good for training your muscle memory, the only problem is that it's training you to do the wrong thing.
  7. Shuma-Gorath is offline
    Shuma-Gorath's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    6,608

    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 9:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have done sparring with multiple opponents back in the Dark Age and it never, ever looked like kata. In fact, we were told to move into a position where one person blocked the other so that we never had to deal with two people at different angles.

    Kata, in addition to being entirely predetermined, has no threat of failure. If you miss a cover or leave your jaw exposed while sparring, you get clipped. In kata the only punishment is the fact you're not making the best use of your time.
  8. kenpostudent is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    502

    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 9:56pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are not practicing fighting imaginary opponents...you are practicing the footwork necessary to transition at different angles. Boxers and kickboxers have to practice footwork and movement. Why would martial artists be any different? I hate kata, personally. I wish I never had to do them. How else can you train to move into position to attack and defend at different angles but by moving, attacking and defending at different angles? Just because I do a certain strike or kick at a certain angle in a kata, does that somehow mean that I only know how to do that same strike or kick with that same foot maneuver? Kata is more an exercise of footwork than anything else. The strikes and kicks are all interchangeable. The value in kata is the ability to quickly transition from one angle to the next, one stance to the next with speed, power, focus, and balance. There is a mental focus that it builds as well.

    Look at it like this: when we learn to write, first we learn the alphabet. Then we learn to form letters into words. Then we form words into sentences. Once we can use sentences, we string them together into paragrapghs. Finally, we learn to string paragraphs together into essays and discourses. We had to learn to write through a structure, though. We didn't just start stringing words together in a haphazard pattern. However, none of us speak or write only using the rigid sentences that we copied by rote when we first learned to write and read. Eventually, by reading and studying the works of others, we learned the principles of writing and are now able to formulate our own ideas. Kata is one method of providing the structure of learning to string the letters and words (individual techniques, punches, kicks, foot maneuvers) into sentences and paragraphs of motion. No one really fights with a kata, anymore than we speak by quoting Dr. Suess, even if his books were some of the first that we read.

    And, btw, I really could give a **** if anyone insults me or not...I'm pretty thick-skinned. You are entitled to your opinion. I do find it funny that anyone who studies a traditional martial art gets ridiculed. I study bjj, too. I train at a boxing gym with muay thai kick boxers. We all train together. We never insult what the others do, though. I'm just wondering where the need to insult every style under the sun except bjj and mt comes from? I haven't experienced that in the circles I run in before.
  9. Fantasy Warrior is offline
    Fantasy Warrior's Avatar

    Misguided style basher

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,714

    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 9:57pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    We still hate katas/patterns

    Solo or compliant forms, katas, patterns whatever

    I cannot believe people are still joining here who haven't worked out how silly they are. The mind boggles, it's not like it hasn't been debated to death, but still people come in defending it.

    Common pro-kata arguments that are plain silly:

    1. "It may not be good for sports fighting but it's good for self-defence"
    Bloody stupid, what sort of a Muppet thinks that real life situations involve people attacking you in a prearranged sequence of moves or that training whatever moves you do train for self-defence cannot be done a lot better by training them as sports fighters would - sparring, bag work, shadow boxing etc.

    2 "But it's just like shadow boxing"
    No it isn't. How many times do people have to point out that shadow boxing isn't prearranged and that it practices the exact same moves you use in sparring and thus in fighting?

    3. "Well it's good for fitness"
    Relative to wanking over the latest copy of Inside Kung Fu maybe, but there are a load of better ways to work on conditioning.

    4. "And balance"
    You what??? Since when has the balance needed to perform a non-contact spinning hammer strike Tiger claw combo been the same as the type of balance you need when actually being physically manhandled? The context is so far removed it's not funny.

    5. "Well there's focus"
    Focus on what, an imaginary person? If you sat at the kitchen table focusing on an imaginary person and making strange noises as you breath your family would think you are nuts, but in the dojo tht's somehow a good way of training focus under the pressure of being attacked??? Try heavy sparring maybe.

    6. "Well even BJJ has kata therefore you can't criticise it"
    Quite aside from the false notion that people cannot do a martial art whilst accepting that aspects thereof are silly or imperfect, this is also a corruption of the popular definition of kata. It attempts to change the frame of reference of what is or isn't kata so far away from the popular usage that almost anything and everything becomes "kata". Stop trying to blow smoke in people's faces.


    And I bet there's loads more.


    Anyone who thinks kata is anything other than silly is a prize plonker.
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
  10. kenpostudent is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    502

    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 10:00pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BSDaemon
    On the contrary, Kata teaches you to pull your punches. Your body learns this in order to prevent you from hyperextending your joints or falling off balance when you are striking the air. By snapping your strikes out in the error you are teaching your muscles to resist their own power.

    In addition, your actions in Kata are triggered based on the previous move in a pre-programed sequence, while the trigger events you really want are the actions of your opponent.


    You are correct that Kata is good for training your muscle memory, the only problem is that it's training you to do the wrong thing.
    When should you ever throw strikes that throw you off balance? That's only done in Rocky movies. Kata is less about the striking and more about the footwork. And you should never throw any strike so hard that you would hyperextend your joints, period. If you are doing that, your form is bad.
Page 4 of 99 FirstFirst 1234 56781454 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.