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  1. AAAhmed46 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2007 5:53pm


     Style: karate,MMA(between gyms)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
    I'm not a judo expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I've never been told to go into a horse stance when doing a hip throw. Off the top of my head, O Goshi and Uki Goshi.

    Truthfully with all the all the chambers are something else, I think people are just looking into kata trying to find something useful. In Enshin when we did pulling techniques, the aren't done or practiced like a chambered punch, there done in a fighting stance, pulling with the arms and twisting the hips, almost like you pulling your hand back from a cross. Returning your hand to the chin/chest, not to the under armpit/to the hip.

    I like Omega's analogy better, I have a bad habit of chicken winging my crosses, I'll give a some kata I remeber a try.

    well we do horse stance a bit different so...maybe thats it.
  2. AAAhmed46 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2007 1:06am


     Style: karate,MMA(between gyms)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Besides, im of the belief that kata themselves have been modified in such a way that makes it more ineffective. Such as the deep stances, i know a shotokan guy(tough man) who says that the super deep horse stance was added in after funakoshi's death.

    Hell if you look at pictures of funakoshi, alot of times when demonstrating, a chamber was usually a pull in in bunkai pictures. While now, most shotokan schools just focus on the strike, and the chamber does nothing but chamber.

    That said, im not much of a fan of funakoshi. He hated sparring didn't he?
    Would he be happy with todays shotokan because of that?
  3. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/23/2007 2:33am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So kata used to be t3h r43l but were corrupted?
  4. AAAhmed46 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2007 2:39am


     Style: karate,MMA(between gyms)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Some.......
  5. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2007 2:43am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
    Truthfully with all the all the chambers are something else, I think people are just looking into kata trying to find something useful. In Enshin when we did pulling techniques, the aren't done or practiced like a chambered punch, there done in a fighting stance, pulling with the arms and twisting the hips, almost like you pulling your hand back from a cross. Returning your hand to the chin/chest, not to the under armpit/to the hip.
    I think of the chambered position like a whizzer.
  6. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/23/2007 8:26am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!


    And here's the half-guard practiced standing up.
  7. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2007 10:40am

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Look I'm not going to defend patterns and forms to you guys, you obvioiusly don't know what they are. But that's a pose virus. You know like crossing your arms in front of a camera to look tough?

    Most TMA guys have used forms to rot brains and spread propaganda. That's not my fault.

    Just because they don't have super long stances in wrestling...wait they do it's called a shoot, well as long as you don't put it in a set pattern over and over again....oh wait they do....oh well you call those a drill....wait I could remember some instructors saying drill your forms...but hey that's a different issue.....bad example.

    Just because you don't chamber your fist in boxing....wait you do, you put them in a locked position by the chin...well as long as you don't just drill the same punch over and over again in a set combination until you get the right technique down...oh wait you do...well at least in boxing they freestyle it...oh wait that's what you're supposed to do in those other systems too? ****, another bad example...

    Well in Judo...never mind they have forms too..

    Well in Muay Thai...wait they have forms too?

    ****.....well in Jiujitsu...**** I already covered that a few posts back didn't I?

    Guy, the real point is this. I coached guys for years, I'm trying to get them to mount correctly and they weren't getting it. For the life of me it was driving me crazy so I hung out with the local bjj school to see what they were doing. They did this scarf hold, pin, reverse scarf hold to mount drill with no partners. I took that to my gym and added a dismount exercise (19 movement). I told my guys when it stopped looking like you were breaking it down and you were flowing so it looked like one movement not a fish out of water flapping around we could continue.

    That's a form. Yeah, we gave it a pretty name to. Just like Mission Control, and the Rubber Guard and the Kimura. I just can't see why you can't get this part through your heads.
  8. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/23/2007 11:31am

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just because you don't chamber your fist in boxing....wait you do, you put them in a locked position by the chin
    Exactly! "By the chin..." Where you should put your fist when boxing or fighting, not chambered by your waist or floating ribs or whatever other flowery position Asian MA forms have you put in.

    Bah! I'm sure someone already said it.
  9. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2007 11:48am

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W.
    Exactly! "By the chin..." Where you should put your fist when boxing or fighting, not chambered by your waist or floating ribs or whatever other flowery position Asian MA forms have you put in.

    Bah! I'm sure someone already said it.
    He swings....ew and he misses the point again!!!!!
  10. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/23/2007 12:08pm

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    LOL.

    Look, I am not saying that putting something in a literal "pattern" to practice it is always bad. You showed that is not the case through your other examples even if I didn't already agree with that point. But what is wrong with forms in Asian MA goes beyond the fact that they are "dead patterns." The fact that they are dead patterns only means you should spend a minimum of time on them (as opposed to 50-75% of your time like in some TMA schools). But dead training does have it's place as an introduction. And in that sense, forms do have a place.

    But AMA forms also have very unrealistic stances, movements and techniques which differentiate them from the examples you used. And that was MY point.

    Omega, obvioulsy you can fight. And you trained forms. Logical fallacies aside, those two facts do carry some weight. But read my training log. I did a ton of forms in TKD. Last week I worked boxing with a trainer who was using focus mitts. Which did more for my punching? The answer is obvious. Coincidentally, the boxing training on mits also did more for my balance, coordination, footwork and (at least as much for) my conditioning than practicing forms would have. It also addressed responding to the movement and attacks of a real person which forms practice never would have done.

    You see where I'm going with this? If this conversation is getting old and repetative, drop me a PM. I'd really like to understand where your coming from. But so far, I just don't see it, man.

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