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  1. Tom Kagan is offline
    Tom Kagan's Avatar

    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2007 11:30am

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Asia the Invincible
    But can you really blame him?

    Yes, you really can.

    :smile:
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  2. jkdbuck76 is offline
    jkdbuck76's Avatar

    Here, hold these for me.

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2007 11:48am

    Join us... or die
     Style: jkd concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra
    Dan Inosanto does capoeira? I'd also add Marc Denny to that list, who still trains and fights in his 50s.
    My instructor at 57 still kickboxes against us and rolls.
    And wins most of the time.
    Of course, he's a fitness NUT...always running, dieting,
    and lifting weights.

    Then you got 21 year olds who can't spar and do
    kata without passing out. The one I'm thinking of
    is in Oklahoma....
    SEANBABY:
    "The seventh law of thermodynamics is that every time a fat person gets near a trapdoor, they fall in. Itís the closest thing we have to scientific proof of God."
  3. Goju - Joe is offline
    Goju - Joe's Avatar

    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Toronto
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    Posted On:
    6/20/2007 11:50am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChiBlast
    Also, if patterns were suc an important conditioning exercise, why is it that your average BJJ/MMA/MT guy is in much better sahpe then your average TMA guy, when the BJJ/MMA/MT guy doesn't do any patterns?

    That's a gross over generalization

    I could easily say that your average XMA guy who can do somersaults, back flips, one hand hand stands is in better shape and more athletic than your average BJJ/MMA/MT guy and that as forms and patterns are the base foundation for what they do then it proves that forms and patterns are better.

    It doesn't because it's a logical fallacy much like your statement.

    The fact that crappy TMA teachers use forms and patterns to hide or disguise the fact that they're crap doesn't mean that forms and patterns in them selves are crap.

    There's a huge difference between a two man Okinawan based Kata where the pair of fellows are smashing shins and forearms together and some craptacular US strip mall Kata being performed by an overweight soccer mom.

    The big problem with the Kata bathers on here is they lump it all together and completely ignore everything else that anyone says is contrary.

    Chi blasts blog entry while being entirely correct was completely irrelevant to what people where saying (until Kempostudent showed up) in that no one was hyping Kata over alive training.

    At best everyone mostly says Kata isn't shadowboxing or conditioning or meditation but it's own mix -like a soup, that contains elements of everything else and is a decent solo drill to spend 10-20 minutes opn before other stuff like bag work, shadow boxing or lifting weights.

    The thing that people get hung up on is that although Kata contains many elements of other exercises it is not a substitute for other exercises.

    Much in the same way soup may contain vegetable;es and meat soup is not a steak or salad.

    I fucking despise analogies but there you go

    KATA IS SOUP!!!!!!!!!

    (I hate you all for making me say this)
  4. ironlurker is offline
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    How do Chameleon Circuit?

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    Arkham
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    Posted On:
    6/20/2007 12:22pm


     Style: jkd

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Soju - Joe
    KATA IS SOUP!!!!!!!!!
    NO KATA FOR YOU! :hitlerdan
  5. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Long Island
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    Posted On:
    6/20/2007 12:37pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    You do realize that you say that kata is worthless, and then turn around and tell us that prearranged sets of moves can be useful in training.
    You also have described line drills. Another thing that my OP mentions.
    You then close by saying the same thing that I have been saying about what patterns can be used for.
    Actually, he never said they were worthless because they were prearranged, i believe he never gave his reasoning as to why he feels they are worthless...

    Patterns/kata/forms when done at full speed are a good carido workout. Not much different than shadowboxing.
    You still haven't responded to my main point. You and most of the others advocating katas have said they aren't useful for fighting. You state that the techniques in there - either inherently or by the way they are executed - are simply ridiculous for use in fighting. Thus you emphasize the secondary benefits, most of which are conditioning.

    So my question to you is: do you really believe it is worth it - to get these secondary benefits (which you can also get through better training methods that are actually conditioning drills) - while practicing those useless techniques, effectively training your body in bullshido?

    If forms were just a training method that helped condition, then even if there were better methods, it'd still be ok - not like we should get rid of crunches because v-ups may be better. But any benefits you get from forms is at the expense of ingraining techniques that you won't ever use.
    Last edited by EternalRage; 6/20/2007 12:41pm at .
  6. Teh El Macho is offline
    Teh El Macho's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    Porcupine/Hollywood, FL & Parmistan via Elbonia
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    Posted On:
    6/20/2007 12:49pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There are individuals here who should stop, once and for all, to stop fucking up and putting all kata in the same super-fucking strip-mall dojo basket. This **** has already been discussed ad-nauseum, in particular about Judo/JJ kata.

    If someone is going to criticize shitty kata, or those who do nothing but forms or kata, then be specific in naming what you are criticizing. These vague, nutriding "har har, rar rar, kata sux" discussions are pretty fucking retarded, and help absolutely nothing in expressing the points on aliveness and **** they are (supposedly) trying to present.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  7. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2007 12:56pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On that note, I want to point out that the explosion of anti-kata threads originally started off in the Korean MA subforum in the Styles Forum. Someone was asking about the worth of Korean MA forms. I posted my opinions, Omega thought I had no experience in KMA, he culled my posts to YMAS, which only just opened another front here, and finally kickcatcher got huffy and started yet a third front.

    So in actuality we were discussing KMA forms...
  8. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2007 1:37pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Check out Kesting Yoga for grappling

    In of it's self Yoga is not applicaple to grapplnig - in that doing yoga with out actual grappling instruction won't make you a grappler.

    However the positionis and moves in Yoga - while not being directly related to grappling help condition flexability and strength which is part of grappling.

    http://www.grapplearts.com/Yoga-for-Grappling.htm
  9. lafe is offline

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    Mar 2007
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    Posted On:
    6/20/2007 2:35pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    In defense of judo kata

    I think that most of the anti-kata arguements here are directed at the striking arts kata, which I hate as much as any of you guys. However, I think that _when_taught_correctly_ the randori no kata, which consist of nage no kata and katame no kata are actually useful in training. While they are usually taught as a set of dance moves to memorize for the black belt test, this is not how they are intended and not how they are taught at our school. First of all, when done right, the "uke" in both of these kata is really fighting back. So for instance if uke is trying to hit tori in the head and tori doesn't do his move correctly, he really gets hit in the head, and this does happen in class and in kata competition from time to time. And in katame no kata, uke is really trying to escape hard, and if the hold down is not totally solid, he *will* get out. Also, nage no kata practice helps judoka train in wierd and potentially painful ukemi that we don't necesarilly get all that often in randori, but wich do happen from time to time, which makes ukemi less intimidating, allowing us to play less defensively in randori and contest becuaes the fear of falling is diminished. Also, when we train in kata, the class is constantly going back and forth between some detail in the kata of how a technique should be done and then actually trying it on eachother with resistance. Perhaps there are other ways to get this benefit, but I have found that my footwork has gotten noticably better(I get swept less often in randori), and my ukemis have become much more second nature(which makes it easier to be less defensive) since I started doing a once a week kata class a year ago. And when we study katame no kata, we'll often just spend a long time focusing on the minute details of getting good chokes, which our instructor uses as an excuse to teach all sorts of sneaky variations on the collar chokes, which I've found to be devastatingly effective in both judo and BJJ randori. Again, I'm sure there are other ways to learn this, but for me, I've seen a drastic increase in how many collar choke submissions I get since I started the kata class. I also do not claim that kata are usually taught in this way in judo, just that they are in our dojo. If anyone lives in the Front Range area in colorado, you should drop in to Boulder Judo Training Center at 8:30 on a saturday morning and you'll see what I mean.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Administrator

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2007 2:43pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    On that note, I want to point out that the explosion of anti-kata threads originally started off in the Korean MA subforum in the Styles Forum. Someone was asking about the worth of Korean MA forms. I posted my opinions, Omega thought I had no experience in KMA, he culled my posts to YMAS, which only just opened another front here, and finally kickcatcher got huffy and started yet a third front.

    So in actuality we were discussing KMA forms...
    No. The KMA one is the latest. We have had an unusual large amount in the last 2 months.
    We just have a bunch of noobs that are huffy. This is about the sixth or seventh in the last month.

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