6/18/2007 11:04am, #31
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
the few times the some of the more awkard technques worked, it was because the sifus were are very strong individuals.
forget using them on a larger fanger, unless larping and faking.
6/18/2007 7:11pm, #32Originally Posted by Crazy Mount
6/19/2007 12:37pm, #33
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
I lurked here as a non-registered guest to browse the forums for just under a year until this hit the fan. So out I come with my 0.02 cents.
As a martial arts enthusiast of 20 years in Ottawa, I have to say that everything Ghyslain says is in keeping with things I used to hear in the 80s. I have a friend who told me about the "pail of dogshit" story, as well as the barroom outings.
It's disgusting these traditions have been allowed to continue - and that they STILL practice them behind closed doors and keep everyone in fear/brainwashed. Howcome these FSD guys don't defend any of these stories - is it because they CAN'T?
I usually reserve judgement - but all these stories and facts put things way beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Why don't they just market themselves as a ****-disturbing FIGHT CLUB and be done with it?
6/19/2007 2:22pm, #34
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- Jan 2007
i think we should be careful and not generalize this behaviour to all FSD schools. It seems that most disturbing stories are "sijo" oriented and happened in the late 80's / early 90's.
though they can't change the past, FSD seems to be taking steps in improving their services, for what it's worth...
6/19/2007 3:55pm, #35
Originally Posted by fanger123
- Join Date
- Apr 2005
There is more to come out then just Ghyslain's stories, and far more recent, it is more a matter of convincing people with recent stories to post about them.
For example I've met someone that was there for the Dogshit sniffing pail. And if you review the posts about it, suffice it to say that this was a lot more recent then the early 1990s. Though yes, it appears to have been Jacques centred.
Plus ca change...
Last edited by Askari; 6/19/2007 4:21pm at ."Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
6/19/2007 5:00pm, #36
- Join Date
- May 2007
... plus c'est pareil...
but still I think the early MWC / FSD and all it's batshit-craziness was done through Sijo. I've read (I really can't remember if here or another thread) about new sifus not being as intense/crazy/intimidating than the Patenaude familly.
I still have to agree with Fanger123 that FSD is definitely taking steps in the right description, although it will be interesting to see if FSD management agrees with theses changes.
For example, were there any of the Patenaudes at the Muay Thai event last saturday? From what I've read, I don't think so, which makes me think it was more a sBP project than FSD project...
6/19/2007 5:09pm, #37Originally Posted by inspecta
It's sometimes hard for those of us in montreal not to make excuses for them when we hear of the batshit insane antics of the clubs in ottawa. A lot of it seems so far removed. I don't have trouble believing any of this, but it is hard to reconcile with the relatively tame experience I had in montreal. Then again, I never went to "training camp"...
Edit: it occurs to me that this is likely because most of the sifus/owners in montreal are well removed from sJP. sBP, for instance, learned from sMP who learned from sJP. Ryan Parsons learned from sBP. Each step insulates from the madness of sJP that much more. You can still see hints of everything being discussed, though, but it's not nearly the same. This doesn't change anything about FSD essentially being a bullshido art, of course, as ghyslain is confirming; third or fourth generation bullshido is still bullshido.
Last edited by myrmecophilous; 6/20/2007 9:08am at .
6/19/2007 6:46pm, #38Originally Posted by oilpatchtown
PS - OilPatchTown? You in Calgary?
6/19/2007 7:35pm, #39
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
- Gatineau Canada
To answer some questions
Me again: here to answer some of the questions that my original post generated.
Before I start I'd like to thank you all for reading it and giving feedback. I wrote that in one shot – it just came out – and I realize now I've been holding it in a very long time. It was a LONG post – much longer than I realized... wow – thanks for reading.
Well, I apologize in advance for this one as well – because it will also be long.
Ok, now for the questions that have come out:
On Patenaude and claims of teaching “Silat”.
I will answer this question, but I first need to paint a long (my apologies) background on how this came about, and why it was finally discarded. You have to understand “how Patenaude got there” to appreciate what happened.
Patenaude started teaching in the basement of a church in Cassleman Ontario (which is, well, pretty much a very small farming community between Ottawa and Montreal) in 1979. His first original school (in Ottawa) opened around 1982, which I attended.
The only REAL training he ever had in martial arts (besides watching Bruce Lee movies) was the two week seminar with DeMile in Seattle. This is my very honest opinion given what I know of him from “the old days”.
Patenaude came from very humble origins. He didn't have much money. He also wasn't located near any place that taught the kind of martial art he claimed to be an “expert” in.
Patenaude, to my knowledge, has never even set foot in California – and anyone around from those days KNOWS that all things Bruce Lee/Jeet Kune Do came out of the LA/Oakland area.
So all other things aside, you have to ask yourself – where did Patenaude ever pick up his “Expert” knowledge on anything? Answer: every accolade he has is self bestowed INCLUDING his supposed Instructor status in DeMile's Wing Chun Do.
As already stated in my first post, Patenaude TOLD us (the original 1rst generation students) that he was a certified Wing Chun Do Instructor, but could only promote to Brown Sash (not Black). He would also routinely produce this Instructor certificate from DeMile now & then, which BTW, was a forgery.
How do I know ? Well, he also showed a few of us his supposed Instructor Certificate in Traditional Ving Tsun – signed (supposedly) by Leong Ting, AND his supposed Instructor Certificate in Jeet Kune Do from Danny Inosanto. You heard that right – he HAD those documents under lock and key, and would selectively show it to certain students when he felt like it. Said students were duly impressed, and his credentials spread around by word of mouth.
Today I believe those certificates are total forgeries, especially since you never hear him claim Ving Tsun or Jeet Kune Do “Instructorships”.
I dunno – it's like going to a shitty casino and finding out that one game is clearly rigged – if you know one table is rigged, it's pretty much guaranteed all the others are too.
Anyways, that's my opinion, but the reader can decide for himself.
I can tell you this – Patenaude was VERY GOOD at making really nice rank certificates for his students in those days – he had A LOT of talent with his hands (he was a master wood worker and builder – that's the only Master rank I have no problem bestowing on him). Well, that and Master Manipulator.
So, in the Old Days, (early 80s), he also claimed to have studied “some Karate” and “some Boxing”, but he rarely brought it up.
Nowadays you hear that he was an expert in both disciplines, which is laughable.
For boxing, it was very clear to me that “experience in” meant picking up one or two books, and trying a few punches in the air or on the bag. It was obvious, after training around the guy for years, then becoming a serious boxer in latter years, that he had no understanding of even the most basic fundamentals. I can personally guarantee that he never set foot in a boxing gym in his life.
As a side note: he used to tell this story in the late 80s that a group of us oldtimers “challenged” a local boxing gym to a series of WCD vs Boxing matches – and that our guys cleaned up & were never invited back. All bullshit – I know – because I was there during the old days... I sure as hell would have remembered doing that.
I am 100% convinced that over time, like most bullshitters, the stories, and the legends, grew in size. What was “some training” in the early 80s, turned into “several black belts” over the decades.
I am convinced that the “great knowledge of other arts” in the FSD community has gone through the same process. They think they know every technique out there, but “Sijo”, in all his (and Bruce Lee's Wisdom) have discarded what is useless, and have kept what is useful.
As the early 80s turned into the mid 80s, Jeet Kune Do started getting very “in”.
On Patenaude's fliers and business cards AROUND THAT TIME, you started seeing:
“Jeet Kune Do Concepts”
The first (supposed) “Jeet Kune Do” elements added were kicks from Karate – he started teaching high roundhouse kicks, side kicks, and spinning back kicks. Weapons were introduced in a very limited way – The Karate Bo staff started getting some experimentation time, as did rubber training knives. There was also the Japanese Yawara stick (aka Kubotan).
All of these were “trendy” at the time.
Anyways, the above, to him, constituted enough for him to justify saying “Jeet Kune Do Concepts”. Overnight, it was a Jeet Kune Do place. It was used prominently in the advertising.
Around 1985 or so, a guy named Bob Carver came on the Ottawa scene – he also taught Jeet Kune Do (supposed Dan Inosanto instructor) and Aikido – I met the guy in those years – he had a school on Bank Street and 5th Avenue in Ottawa for a short time, then went under.
Today, or at least in the last few years (have not looked the guy up for awhile), he was teaching pure Muay Thai. Anyways, there was some heat between the two regarding Patenaude's claim of JKD credentials. I won't vouch for Carver either way as I don't really know what his credentials really are, but I will say he was an extremely nice guy to talk to back then. Now that I think about it, it was a pleasure to meet him – really great guy – especially when I was used to having Patenaude as a “master”.
After Carver was on the scene, Patenaude DROPPED the JKD stuff like a hot potato. I guess you might chalk it up to Inosanto having a pair of eyes and ears on the scene, so Patenaude laid low.
Weapons wise, like I said, we had the Bo, the knife and the yawara stick – and what we were taught was EXTREMELY limited... Like he'd show maybe two grips and a few moves, and leave you to it – and you could not ask questions. It was very clear to me, even then, that he had little understanding (apart from having fluffed through a few books) about Karate, Boxing and Weapons.
Kali/Silat – now I'm getting really close to the point, again sorry :-)...
Stick fighting also started getting very popular in the mid 80s – Dan Inosanto went from being a little known Bruce Lee instructor, to international superstar. Patenaude obviously saw the Bruce Lee/Filipino Martial Arts tie-in, so once again, almost overnight, we advertised “Kali/Silat”.
Silat ? You may ask ? Yes. Patenaude moved so fast on this one that he never did his homework – he thought Silat was just another name for Kali. Sorta like how Kali/Escrima are used interchangeably.
It took me a very long time to discover that Silat just wasn't some other word for Filipino Stickfighting because of this. With time, I'm sure Patenaude also figured this out and “Silat” was quickly dropped.
So Silat was NEVER taught at any point – not even fake Silat – it was just a FUCKING TYPO/MISUNDERSTANDING (basically).
On the “Kali” we did learn: we had some rattan sticks kicking around (pretty much overnight), and we were taught 4 basic positions - and all we did was the basic Sinawali drill with two sticks. That's ALL we did for years, and what was taught was incredibly rudimentary.
I had a personal interest in the art, so I bought Dan Inosanto's masterpiece book “The Filipino Martial Arts”. This was before the days of “amazon.com” and big bookstores like Barnes & Nobles (or “Chapters” in Canada) – I had to mail order mine the old fashioned way with an even older fashioned money order. In those days, if you bought anything out of a catalog, it took almost a year to get anything (international mail) – you also had to pay hefty customs fees (prior to free trade between the US and Canada). In those days, getting anything outside of your area was a huge deal, so few people bothered. I did – I was completely mesmerized with Filipino Stick Fighting.
The book was nothing short of biblical revelation (Side note: everyone should have a copy of that book – it's must have – even today)
When I asked Patenaude about the 12 angles (the FIRST THING you learn in real FMA), he had no idea what I was talking about. He was completely ignorant about the fundamentals – yet he was showcasing himself as a master of it.
Overnight, after reading Dan's amazing book, I was a far greater “Master” than he was in the Filipino Martial Arts. This, probably more than any other incident, really made me see through Patenaude's bullshit. Going to a real boxing gym years later confirmed everything.
I mean, if you think about it, this was basically on the same level of buying a ninja suit, and showcasing yourself as a Ninjutsu master (after watching Revenge of the Ninja 10 times). In retrospect, I'm genuinely surprised that there was never a Ninja aspect to Patenaude's “Wing Chun Do”. Seriously.
Anyways, It was very clear to me that he dismissed stickfighting as nothing more than “fucking around with sticks” and there was nothing to it. It also became clear that this was his attitude towards Karate and Boxing (nothing more than fucking around with gloves on, or fucking around with high kicks).
So yeah, to finally answer the question, that's where the “Silat” thing came from, and why it was dropped.
I guess I could have just said “it was just a typo”, but where would the fun in that be :-)
Oh also, - this too – in the old days, we had a wooden dummy – but NOBODY every touched it... it was just there as a decoration: Patenaude had never received any kind of Mook Jong (wooden dummy) training, so he literally had no idea what to do with it!
As time went on, and the art got bigger, I am 100% convinced that he book & video learned how to use it – When I see the online videos of them today trying to mess around on it, my gut reaction is that they really never got properly trained, and they're just going off what they've seen in books and videos over the years. Best thing to do would be to show those promo clips to real Wing Chun people.
Considering Patenaude's been “on the scene” since 1979, it's made for almost 30 years of time to learn things as he went.
On Telling specific stories while wishing to remain anonymous
Ultimately, I have to give specific accounts of personal episodes to have any credibility. My post could have just been:
“I was there in the early 80s. It's a cult, and on several occasions, I feel Patenaude came on to me. Take my word for it - Anonymous”
I couldn't do that.
Yes I gave some specifics, and yes there is a certain amount of risk, but, I feel safe.
I'm of the FIRM BELIEF that there's NO WAY I'm the only guy who went thought that **** – in fact, I am 100% positive that literally dozens of people have – and many, have FAR WORSE stories to tell than me. I think I'm literally a proverbial grain of sand on the beach.
What happened to me happened 20 years ago – it's not like it was six months ago. I'm very confident that volumes of other episodes similar to mine have happened over those two decades, so I'm very sure they will have no idea where to start (given what I've said).
Also, Patenaude is a Megalomaniac – he focuses on HIMSELF – he pays little attention to the “small people” around him. I doubt he really paid much attention to us... I really do feel he wouldn't remember much of my interactions with him.
Choosing what to say was a bit of a struggle – say too much, and you possibly open yourself up for discovery and retribution... Say too little – well, then what's the point ? So I had a difficult choice – I had to say just enough to make it credible, specific information, but not enough to make it so specific that I target myself.
I erred on the side of giving details, and yes, it does expose me to a certain amount of risk, and yes I am gambling a little, but I feel pretty safe.
I can't stress this enough : Go to ANY martial arts place in the Ottawa Valley and drop the Patenaude name – you'll see people do a doubletake and go silent – and they'll wait for you to say how messed up it was – and then they'll say “Oh GOD I know – I know a few ex students – and some of the **** they said....” - it's common knowledge, everywhere you go, you hear about **** that went down there – Everyone's got a good Patenaude story that they heard from another person. Problem is it's usually a 2nd hand story – people “who were there” have a genuine fear of his inner circle – not because they're formidable guys on their own – it's a group thing – I don't care how tough you are, nobody can take on a group – especially when they'll stab you in the back when you least expect it.
It's always an individual VS the group – that's why people stay quiet. There's 20 + years of FUCKED UP stories that (in my opinion) need to be told. That's what I'm trying to do – I'm trying to get some of the ex inner circle guys I know to open up and go on-the-record – either full on, or anonymous like I have have.
Patenaude's a bad guy – some of his inner circle guys are too – however, there were number of good people who went there – they were all young guys, and they got caught up in the hype. Like I said, I'm friends with a number of them (still!), and I'm really trying to get them to come out and post their experiences.
Guy named “TKD Black Belt” called it perfectly (WTG Bro): “I suspect this may not be the 'boom' we were told to prepare for but a 'boom' nonetheless....”
Yes, there's several “booms” waiting to come out, but I don't want to say them 2nd hand – I'm trying to get the guys who had it happen to them first hand to come forward and tell the stories in their own words. They're reading this thread, and are considering... I'm hoping my example will get them to follow suit.
I'm hoping for a floodgate to be opened.
In my case it actually feels GOD DAMN GOOD to get it off my chest – I've basically buried that crap and moved on – it's like a dirty back corner of your house that you finally get around to CLEANING OUT.
Believe me – I was there in the day when it wasn't expensive to train there – the cult **** was starting, but it was far less crazy than it is today. If people from this era came out and posted their stories, I guarantee you that my stories would pale in comparison.
On the bum story:
I can tell you that I was right there when that episode happened, it all happened exactly like I described it.
In Patenaude's defense, I will say this: that part of town, back then, was a bad part of town (it's cleaned up a lot today).
The school was, and still is spitting distance from the city's bus terminal – and if you ever want to get your fill of pimps, run-aways, and generally fucked up people – go hang out at a big Greyhound (or Voyageur, as well call them in Canada) bus station.
The other thing Catherine Street was known for in 70s and 80s was WHORE HOUSES.
During those years, there were a couple of on-and-off again “rub & tug” places operating there – also, a lot of “call in” whores had safe houses on that street – walking up and down that street was always a freaky experience, and it was a great place to get in an altercation.
Kent Bowling Lanes was across the street, and in the 70s, that was a wonderful place to go get yourself in trouble. In the old days, it had a pretty decent Arcade going, and THAT was the place to be in those days. I actually got in a few fist fights in my wilder youth in that place - nudging a guy playing “Defender” was a great way to get your ass kicked in the late 70s :^)). Was also a great place to score hash (so you had that scene nearby as well).
Lot of drug houses in that area, and as another poster noted – there was a number of bums going around because of the Goodwill. Bank St (just down the way) was Beggars Central (still is today).
There was even a couple of “after hours” joints there as well – there was a Jamaican social club there for a few years (1 block away), and around 1990 or so, someone got shot & killed there, and the city had enough – there was a big crackdown and they ran just about all the crime outta that area.
Today it's a MUCH nicer place. Kent Bowling Lanes is still there – but the arcade is gone, and it's a safe place to bring your family. All the drugs and sex **** moved to Vanier (on the other side of town).
Anyways, yes, there were a lot of weirdos going around there, so it MIGHT be plausible that Patenaude's story about the, well let's call it the “Soiled Wooden Dummy” actually happened.
Maybe he was just telling me a creepy story (that happened) to get a rise out of me. It's possible... But again, I look at it this way : Why would you tell a TEENAGER about it when you were alone with him – that's extremely fucked up. I can't put into words how creepy he was – all I can say is he got incredibly weird on me – it's not like he just told a story and was laughing his ass off – like “Man, this is what happened – can you believe that **** ?!?!?!”).
Like I said – if it was ONE episode like that, I could chalk it up to “well whatever”, but there were MANY episodes like that – some too specific that I won't bring up here. Also, I know stuff you guys don't... but it's 2nd hand – and I want the people who had it happen to them come forward, rather than me say stuff 2nd hand.
On the bumfight (LOL BTW):
It's also possible that more than one bum meandered in there and got “Patenauzed” - over 25+ years, a lot of **** can happen. All I can say is I actually witnessed the shitkicking that I saw, and it's not a 2nd hand story from another student trying to sell a legend.
I saw what I saw, and described it exactly as I remembered it. Maybe this episode turned into a legend, where the details changed as time went on and people heard it second hand... Maybe it's happened more than once... No real way of knowing, but again, I will stand by what I posted – I saw it with my own eyes and I remember it like it happened yesterday.
On my possible attempt to “cater to the group opinion, then hijack the discussion”
One reason that I posted here, is that people are not suckers.
People here research, question, and debate things thoroughly. People THINK. I also know that Patenaude's guys (both current and ex) read the posts here – there is, in my opinion, no better place to put something like this up, than here.
Now, that may be seen as a further attempt on my part to kiss people's asses and “hijack” or “sway” the readership – I assure you, it is not.
I fully expected my story to be HARSHLY analyzed in a cold clinical way, and I'm happy that it is. That's the main reason why I attempted to put great detail in describing the old place – I wanted to establish STRONG credibility – I knew it would get back to some people who used to be there, and I also knew the newer guys would associate with what I said, because, I'm sure the place MUST be similar in many ways, to how it was back then. In putting in the details I put it, I knew some people would vouch for it.
I also stated that my story was just one guy's tale/opinion – take it with a grain of salt – and that it can't stand up on it's own – other people have to read what I said, and find the courage to come forward and do the same – only at that point, can you really give my story any real “industrial strength” weight.
More stories like mine have to come out – the REAL picture can only become crystal clear if others come forward and post their own FIRST HAND experiences like i did. There is some SINISTER stuff that went down over the years in, and out, of those schools... I feel it all needs to be told, and people should know about this ASSHOLE and the damage he's caused to so many people's lives.
If no one else ever comes out like I did, well, unfortunately, all the reader can do is “earmark” my story as “interesting and notable”, but “holds limited water”.
If it goes down like that, I am ok with it, because I as an individual did my part, and I won't jump up and down for more attention. I'm not gonna keep posting here because the last thing I want is for this to be all about me – and I don't want to hijack anything.
Unless a lot of other questions come up, I don't plan on posting much more – I feel I've done my part, and I'm hoping I'll inspire some guys with REAL whopper stories (that I know about) to finally come out.
6/19/2007 8:49pm, #40
- Join Date
- Apr 2005
Thank you for your posting. You are right, Bullshido is the place for this.
If you put up 10 posts, even short ones, you will be able to PM.
Failing that my email address is askarichecks AT hotmail.com
The current FSD inner circle already have my email address.
Also dates in your story match the Yellow Pages adds from the library:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=32551"Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"