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  1. jibs is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 10:06am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: JuJitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    Anyways, take this with a grain of salt. I've never heard, or read about this; Most modern doctors do not believe in it, and it's more in the realm of holistic nutritionists.

    I, for one, am gonna give it a try... in the sense that I'll eat more brocolli, nix rye and eat a bit less oatmeal. :tongue3:

    These are lists of foods that can raise both acidity or alkalinity:

    http://www.energiseforlife.com/list_...line_foods.php

    http://www.thewolfeclinic.com/acidalkfoods.html

    And these are some recipes to bring alkalinity levels back to normal:

    http://acidalkalinediet.com/recipes.php?gid=&mid=&yid=

    Clicking around on some of the above links I find this
    ...
    The concepts behind following an alkaline diet are very simple: eat the things you know are good for you (fresh, leafy green vegetables and salads etc.) and steer clear of the things you know are bad (sugar, bad fats, alcohol, tobacco, yeast etc.)

    Hard to argue with that. When I look at the list of alkaline and acidic foods (link above), I already avoid most of them, not because they are acidic, but because they are crap to begin with. It looks like eating alkaline foods means just eating healthy. That means the Alkaline diet could actually lead to weight loss, increased strength, more energy, faster recovery, decreased risk for diabetes and heart attack, etc. Who would have thought:cool:
  2. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 11:26am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Exactly. That's the only reason I'm using those "alkaline vs acidic" foods charts. I decided to imply cut on my oatmeal and whole wheat pita, add some psyllium husk powder in my morning drinks (to compensate for cutting on oatmeal), and more than doubled the amount of brocolli and cauliflower I eat every day.

    It feels better, protein shakes don't bother me that much and I poop better (yay!) It's very likely it has to do more with the type of food than a change in ph (as the alkaline diet suggests.)
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  3. fedeykin is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 11:53am


     Style: Dead Lemur Style

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ----------
    Get some actual sources and come back. Beleza--------------



    why dont you get a source to prove me wrong, eh?
  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 12:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dude, he did by quoting, verbatin, the disclaimer that appeared in the link you provided.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  5. spirez is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/04/2007 4:02pm


     Style: BJJ/no-gi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bump, El Macho did you ever follow this in more depth? I've been reading up about it and must admit i can't see anything wrong with the concept. Hell, if it's good enough for Berardi it's good enough for us mere nutritional knowledge mortals.

    Someone mentioned about the body balancing PH levels regardless. Berardi explains this in his article but also explains why a diet that follows this alkaline balance is better as you are not leaching nutrients from the bodies stores to do the dirty work, ie calcium and glutamine.

    For anyone lacking the attention span to read the article linked to, i'll quote it.

    By John Berardi

    The North American diet (yes, even the diets of health-conscious North Americans) is often a very acidic one. From most protein sources (even the lean ones) to many dairy sources (especially cheeses) to grains (even the unprocessed ones), many of our dietary staples produce a net acidity in the body, overwhelming the amount of bases we take in daily. And itís this imbalance between acid and base that can cause some serious long term health and physique problems.

    I know, I know Ė some docs will tell you this is absolute baloney. Well, perhaps they also think that journals like the Journal of the American Dietetics Association, the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, the American Journal of Physiology, the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition and the European Journal of Nutrition are also full of crap. Whatís the link? Well, these journals and more have published scientific papers detailing the importance of the dietary acid/base balance.

    So, the bottom line is, if your doc tells you that the dietary acid/base balance isnít important, you need to find a new doctor immediately! It is important Ė and in this article, Iíll tell you whyÖ

    The Acids and Bases Weíre Eating

    When a food is ingested, digested and absorbed, each component of that food will present itself to the kidneys as either an acid-forming compound or a base-forming one. So remember, when we eat, itís the broken down chemicals in our food that determine how much acid or base will enter our bodies.

    I make this last point as itís easy to confuse acid foods with acid loads. Take an orange, for example. Seems like an acidic food, right? Well it is, outside the body. However, once itís digested and absorbed, the digested and absorbed orange chemicals present themselves to the kidneys as a base load. This is the case with most fruits and veggies. So donít confuse a foodís acid/base status outside the body with what it does inside the body.

    Now, when the sum total of all the acid producing and the base producing micro and macronutrients is tabulated (at the end of a meal or at the end of a day), we're left with a calculated acid/base load on the body. If the diet provides more acidic components, it will obviously manifest as a net-acid load on the body. And if it provides more basic components, it will obviously manifest as a net-base load on the body.

    Since I already noted that a net acid load is bad, letís discuss why.

    Every cell of the body functions optimally within a certain pH range (pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of the body). In different cells, this optimal range is different; however, the net pH of the body has to remain tightly regulated. One common problem with most industrialized societies is that our diets produce what's called a "low grade chronic metabolic acidosis." In other words, the PRAL (potential renal acid load Ė a measure of the amount of acid being introduced through the diet) of our diets is high, and this means that we're chronically in a state of high acidity.

    While there are a number of disease states that induce severe metabolic acidosis, we're not talking about that much acidity here Ė weíre simply talking a sub-clinical rise. Therefore, your doc probably won't notice the problem. In fact, because the acidity of the body is so tightly regulated, no one will likely notice the problem, at least not right away. But that doesn't mean you're in the clear. Your cells will recognize the problem.

    So what's wrong with this low-grade chronic metabolic acidosis?

    Well, since the body must, at all costs, operate at a stable pH, any dietary acid load has to be neutralized by one of a number of homeostatic base-producing mechanisms. So, although the pH of the body is maintained and your doctor visits turn out fine, many cells of the body will suffer. Here are some of the most severe consequences of your body's attempt to maintain a constant pH in the face of an acidic environment:

    * Hypercalciuria (high concentrations of calcium in the urine). Since calcium is a strong base and bone contains the body's largest calcium store, metabolic acidosis causes a release in calcium from bone. As a result, osteoclastic (bone degrading) activity increases and osteoblastic (bone building) activity decreases. The net result of these changes is that bone is lost in order to neutralize the acidic environment of the body. The calcium that was stored in the bone is then lost in the urine along with the acid it was mobilized to neutralize. This creates a negative calcium balance (more calcium is lost from the body than is consumed) and bones get weak.

    * Negative nitrogen balance (high concentrations of nitrogen in urine). Glutamine is responsible for binding hydrogen ions to form ammonium. Since hydrogen ions are acidic, glutamine acts much like calcium to neutralize the body's acidosis. Since skeletal muscle contains the body's largest glutamine store, metabolic acidosis causes muscle breakdown to liberate glutamine from the muscle. The amino acids from this muscle breakdown are then excreted, causing a net loss of muscle protein.

    In addition to bone and muscle loss, other consequences of acidosis include:

    * Decreased IGF1 activity
    * GH resistance
    * Mild hypothyroidism
    * Hypercortisolemia

    Yes, our bodies do have buffering mechanisms (the bicarbonate system is the big one) to deal with excess acid such as the acids produced during exercise and dietary acid loads. However, these systems can get overloaded, and as discussed above, the bones and muscles suffer.

    Interestingly, low-grade metabolic acidosis seems to worsen with age. Many have speculated that this is due to an age-related decline in kidney function. With a decrease in kidney function, we get a decrease in acid excretion. Of course, osteoporosis and muscle wasting are unfortunate consequences of aging. While it's too early to tell, perhaps some of the bone and muscle loss evident as individuals get older is a result of diet-induced acidosis. This means that employing a few simple acid-base strategies may help slow osteoporosis and sarcopoenia.

    Who Is At Risk?

    So the big question is, whoís at risk? Recently, Sebastian and colleagues compared the pre-agricultural diet of our ancestors to the modern North American diet. After evaluating the two diets for what they call NEAP (net endogenous acid production, essentially the same measure as the PRAL above), a -88mEq (milliequivalents) /day acid load characterized the pre-agricultural diet while the modern diet was characterized by a +48mEq/day acid load. What this means is that our ancestors evolved eating a diet that produced more alkaline/basic components versus acid components. However, modern people are eating a diet that produces high acid components and therefore very different from what we evolved to eat. As a result, our modern diet is responsible for what the authors have called a "life long, low grade pathogenically significant systemic acidosis."

    So how have we gotten so far off track? Well, the shift from net base producing foods to net acid producing foods comes mostly as a result of displacing the high bicarbonate-yielding plants and fruits in the diet (again, fruits and veggies produce lots of bases) with grains (again, these produce lots of acids). In addition, most of our modern, energy dense, nutrient poor selections are also acid forming. Finally, high protein animal foods tend to be acid producing as well.

    If you're now wondering how your diet stacks up, check out the online acid-base forum: www.acid-base.de. There youíll be able to calculate your PRAL and determine how much of an acid or base load your body is under. Further, if youíre ingesting too many dietary acids, as most people are, hereís what you can do:

    * Add more vegetables, regardless of the final tally. Everyone can always benefit from more vegetables in the diet. Many bone specialists are now recognizing that the most effective way to improve bone health isnít to add dietary calcium. Itís to eat lots of fruits and vegetables. Vegetables, in addition to all of their other benefits, are powerful acid neutralizers.

    * If you're eating a big meal that's going to be a net acid producer (such as one that contains a large amount of protein and/or grains) and don't want to add more basic foods, consider adding a small amount of glutamine to this meal. Exogenous glutamine supplementation has been shown to neutralize acidosis.

    * A cheaper alternative to glutamine supplementation is either sodium or potassium bicarbonate supplementation. You can add sodium bicarbonate (in the form of baking soda) to your beverages including your protein shakes, which probably are a bit on the acidic side (see milk above). A small two to five gram dose of baking soda would be sufficient to neutralize the shake. But be warned Ė this tastes pretty bad. An alternative to baking soda is Alka-Seltzer.

    * Adding sodium to foods can increase the base potential and reduce the acidity of the meal, although a high salt diet isnít necessarily recommended, especially for those with high blood pressure.

    In the end, although few individuals in the exercise nutrition world are discussing this issue, it remains an important one. Employing a few simple strategies to neutralize your high-acid diet may mean the difference between chronic low-grade acidosis ó and the associated muscle wasting, bone loss and altered hormonal profile ó and a healthy, alkaline diet. So make sure youíre dietary acids are covered!
    I think some people may be too quick to blast something, when they haven't even tried it for themselves.
    Last edited by spirez; 9/04/2007 4:09pm at .
  6. Raining_Blood is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 7:30am


     Style: Wrestling, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    After a conversation with my mother who is a doctor she says the same thing as equipose in that a change in the bodies acidity will most probably result in death. I will admit that I havent read much of whats been posted or the links but from my understanding the benefits that come with a acid balanced diet arnt to do with the actual body changing its ph.
  7. Bry is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/05/2007 9:25am


     Style: Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For those truly interested, there are studies and evidence out there supporting PH balance diets. It really depends on how interested you are.

    Here is a link that talks about two studies. http://www.thepaleodiet.com/newslett...ierVol2No2.pdf

    It even talks about the pros and cons of the study itself.

    Cheers!

    Bry
  8. spirez is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 7:00am


     Style: BJJ/no-gi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Raining_Blood
    After a conversation with my mother who is a doctor she says the same thing as equipose in that a change in the bodies acidity will most probably result in death. I will admit that I havent read much of whats been posted or the links but from my understanding the benefits that come with a acid balanced diet arnt to do with the actual body changing its ph.
    I don't think this point is disputed in the thread. But the point i'm getting at is the body has to use it's nutrients such as glutamine and calcium to regulate acidity levels.

    Now to me, it seems viable that by ingesting alkaline foods the body uses lower concentrations of nutrients to maintain the optimum PH level. Knowing this, does it seem so far-fetched that an alkaline diet can aid recovery and energy levels, being that calcium and glutamine are partly responsible for energy metabolism and recovery, respectively?

    Have a read of my post above yours if you didn't already. Berardi's article explains a little more about it.

    He also explains that many doctors disagree with it, lol.

    Cheers for the link Bry, i'll have a look later
  9. UltraShogun is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 8:06am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The pH of your blood is kept constant by the carbonate iion buffer system. Even injecting acid directly into your blood could not greatly lower the pH.
  10. Bry is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/06/2007 9:04am


     Style: Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I guess the main question is not about the body regulating its PH balance, but more so in what is the cost to your body for that regulating. If that even makes sense.
    I agree the body will do what ever it takes to stay in balance.

    Bry
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