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  1. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Tsun-Derrorist

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2005 5:53pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Silat: Sparring and Exoticizing

    WARNING: RATED NOT FUNNY

    Alright. Silat.

    Through a selection of quotes from the archives and technique videos, i'm going to draw two conclusions about silat:

    1: There's quite a bit of exoticism in silat that noone seems to have noticed. We have quite a bit of "Check out the deadly cannibal arts of the little brown people" that reduces indonesians to a caricature in the western mind, rather than human beings.

    2: The majority of silat techniques are sport legal and the claim that their takedowns cause irreperable damage on the way down is suspect.

    Quotes divided into two sections. The actual commentary is below the quote section. Quotes found through searching on silat AND headhunt*, sparring, deadly, maiming, etc.

    Section 1: Claims about technique
    The slam might hurt but it's not intended to damage you long-term, whereas Silat throws (though the term takedowns fits better than "throw") are likely to involve some "If I throw you like that, you're going to **** up your knees, bwaha!"-element.
    I have to say that the silat I practice starts off in the ground, and is AWESOME there. Rivaling ANY MMA/BJJ groundfighting I have seen.
    I've found Pentjak Silat to be pretty good, but it would be somewhat hard to spar with because it is very much geared towards breaking people.
    'The Silat I have been shown reminds me of Ba Gua done 'spikey' and with a 'Im going to kill you' attitude.'
    i dont need to get someone on the ground to execute grappling techniques. actually in silat, the intention is to destroy the enemy WITH the takedown. contorting and controlling his body so he falls in a bad posture (ukemi will not save you) or interupting his fall in various ways is the silat style of 'break-fall'. no sport,no mercy. there are certain maneouvers that you can even train very well, simply because they are so destructive, that is hard to control them and not injure your partner.
    Section 2: Amatuer Anthropology


    KJM sorry it took so long to get back to you. Cun Ton/Kun Ton/Kun Taw etc. are Chinese Indonesian martial arts. They were develope by the Chinese communities that settled in Malaysia and Indonesia and to some extent in the Philipines as well. They are generally no nonsense martial arts and very eclected. Each teacher will continously modified or add techniques to the original system. It was meant for combat so your life depended on it. The back drop on these arts are due to the ethnic strife in the region. Its a very volatile and viloent area of the world. Not only you have ethnic cleansings/pogroms and the like you have cannabals and headhunters to deal with. You have conflict over relgion as well- between Muslims, Christians, Pagan relgions, Hinduism and so forth.
    The fact is that the basis of a great deal of IMAs and FMAs is defending against multiple armed attackers. Why? So that when Balu-Balu and his buddies from the next village over decide to come over and visit your village with the intent of taking your women, your food, and your head, you and the other home villagers might have a chance to defeat them. That's why the grappling aspects of these arts don't emphasize a lot of groundwork and teach you to get back to your feet as soon as possible.

    Now, assuming we lived in world where techniques that are too damaging to be actually sparred will come to you when you need them (PROTIP: We don't and they won't), this might be an actual arguement.

    However, as we'll see in my brief dip into the well of high comedy that is silat video on the web, the majority of these techniques are sport legal. Yes, I am aware of sport silat, but considering that it's basically point sparring with takedowns, nobody cares.

    http://www.pecahan.com/movies.html
    All but the nut slapping would be legal in MMA, the majority in even amatuer pancrase. The sweeps and locks, while somewhat gimmicky, would be legal in almost every grappling comp.

    http://www.mubai.cc/videoclips.htm
    Number three seems to counteract my case, yet again if we consider MMA, I can see everything but the final hilarious cockwaving/spitposing being legal. The wrist twist to gimmicky omoplata/choke combo would be legal in sport jiujitsu.

    http://www.doblesinstitute.com/wst_page4.html
    Majority MMA legal. The takedowns are without exception sport grappling legal. The only possible illegal technique would be the stomping. By the way, these are the first silat clips I have seen where even token resistance is included.

    As we can see, these techniques are not nearly as dangerous as they're made out to be (nevermind the fact that takedowns which can't be sparred with have universally proven to not work).
    Anyone with counterevidence that shows silat takedowns which actually tear you into two distinct pieces like the android in Alien should present them, but it must include pictures and/or video.

    The second thing I find wrong with silat is the exoticism displayed by many of it's practicioners. In addition to the quotes above, try searching for Chas' posts on Rec.Martial-arts.
    Practicioners seem to be constructing this image of indonesians as roaming bands of fremen, deftly knifing rival clan leaders and taking their heads with a blood curdling cry. In other words, it reduces indonesians and the indigenous people of that archipelego to objects, useful only in that they are "vicious little bastards", little brown exoticized demons who hide poisonous animals in their specially stretched foreskins and sharpen their teeth to points.
    It's very similiar to the yellow fever exoticism in east asian MA, but with an added dose of "deep in the fetid jungles of the amazon/orient" pulp adventure novels from the turn of the century.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  2. Lord Of Chaos is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2005 6:36pm


     Style: pentjak silat/ kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hedgehogey-

    Being a practitioner of Silat myself, I feel compelled to comment.

    First- I actually don't really disagree with anything that you've said. I think that the majority of Silat (at least what I've seen) and how it is taught in the US is straight up embarrassing. I would like to think of the style I was studying (Amerindo Self Defense) as having a whole lot less BS than the majority of Silat out there, but that is simply my opinion.

    I WILL say this- any MA that claims their secret "too deadly" techniques are a cut above fighting basics (and by that I mean boxing and wrestling essentially) is something I avoid like the plague. Our class had all types, including a few ex IMA practitioners who thought that Silat would be the next logical step in their aquisition of mystical fighting techniques. When it came time to hit the bag or Thai pads, or worse- SPAR, they usually got cold feet.

    To cut to the chase- there are a million types of Silat out there, but like most overhyped MA's- most of them suck. Unfortunately, in my experience many aren't that far removed from the RBSD crap actually, and Hedge is also right on with his "it reduces indonesians and the indigenous people of that archipelego to objects, useful only in that they are "vicious little bastards", little brown exoticized demons who hide poisonous animals in their specially stretched foreskins and sharpen their teeth to points" observation. Although I didn't get into it for cultural reasons, I did leanr to realy respect and admire Indonesian culture after having trained with some old timers here and in Holland. They'd probably agree with your observations as well.
  3. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2005 6:42pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MMA, functional JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm going to get my Kris and stab your shadow and KILL YOUR BITCH ASS.
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  4. Lord Of Chaos is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2005 6:49pm


     Style: pentjak silat/ kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ahhh, only if you can get past my kerambit which is ingeniusly concealed by my sarong boyyyyeeeee....
  5. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2005 6:50pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MMA, functional JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have something dangerous concealed in my sarong too...
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  6. Samfoo is offline
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    Knee + Head = Black Eye * 2

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2005 6:55pm

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendetta
    I have something dangerous concealed in my sarong too...
    Why do you have a trouser snake in your.....OHHHHHH!
  7. Lord Of Chaos is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2005 6:59pm


     Style: pentjak silat/ kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's it! I'll be unleashing the "movements of the mad rooster" on you now!

    btw- Unintentional stand up comedian William Sanders demonstrates that, as well as many other "too deadly" techniques such as "the Pukulan wall", "the tiger yell" and my favorite- " the war wheel" on one of his hilarious video tapes. It's quite intense.
  8. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2005 7:08pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MMA, functional JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know alot of Silat techniques can be done in low positions, but be careful with your movements. You don't want to make my Rooster mad!

    I saw some really craptacular silat demo'd the other day. You could tell they thought they were the **** though. THe monkey impressions were priceless.
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  9. Lord Of Chaos is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2005 7:13pm


     Style: pentjak silat/ kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  10. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2005 10:31pm

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     Style: In Transition

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hedge, ever notice how whenever you make a thread, it has a tendency to turn to ****? You have bad Thread-starting Chi man.

    PL
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