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  1. mastertae is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/31/2005 1:43pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Hapkido/Judo...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Taekkyon and Pakchicki

    Most people in Korea or in the United States have never heard of taekkyon or pakchiki, which is a shame as historians consider these two arts the only surviving ancient Korean martial arts. It should be noted that many of the techniques in taekkyon and pakchicki is lost, but the art neverles has strived. These two martial arts are quite different to martial arts like Taekwondo. In pakchicki head-butts are allowed, which were used against Russian soldiers during their short occupation after WWII. Taekkyon which is considered a game in Korea, actually has two distinct styles of taekkyon. Song Dok-Ki was the leading figure in helping taekkyon survive, but he has admitted that he had forgotten some of the techniques used in taekkyon. There is another form of taekkyon created by one of Song's students, whose name is Shin HanSeung . The differances are minor, but important. For example, Song's version of taekkyon allowed full contact to the legs and considered to be more violent than shin's version which allowed for a swaying of the hands used as a deception tool. You can get more information on the differeances of the two forms of taekkyon from http://www.taekkyon.de/html/en/tn_general.html

    According to Black Belt Magazine wereas Japanes Karate for the most part originate only during the 20th century (with the exception of martial arts from Okinawa, which are estimated to be around 400 years old) Pakchicki and taekkyon are about 1,800 years old and has its roots mostly from China. I coudln't get much information about Pakchicki, but that it is a Korean Martial art that emphasis is on head butts. Taekkyon is mostly a martial art that is meant to make your opponent off balanced and the game's rule resembe that of Judo, which a knock down or a kick to the head is an automatic loss. Another differance Between Song and Shin is that Song allowed certain hand strikes. Although Song's version allowed kicks to the legs the fighters cannot (theoretically) severly injure a person, so the person can go back to work, this is because taekkyon in ancient times were practiced by farmers and serious injury would probably mean death or starvation. Pakchicki also seems to be only taught in rural areas.
  2. EternalRage is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2005 2:28am

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     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You also forgot to mention that taekkyon has evolved into the art that every Korean art lays historical claim to. Ancient Taekkyon does not exist anymore. Korean martial arts all started when Korea was liberated from Japan. End of story. Don't believe any of that Hwarang, Korguyo tomb sculpture rubbish from Silla Dynasty junk - all marketing fad to out mysticize TKD.

    Contemporary Korean arts derive more from Okinawan/Japanese Karate than anything else. The Taekkyun link is hopeless...
  3. Matt Bernius is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2005 7:28am

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     Style: Kung Fu

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    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    You also forgot to mention that taekkyon has evolved into the art that every Korean art lays historical claim to. Ancient Taekkyon does not exist anymore. Korean martial arts all started when Korea was liberated from Japan. End of story. Don't believe any of that Hwarang, Korguyo tomb sculpture rubbish from Silla Dynasty junk - all marketing fad to out mysticize TKD.
    Actually while TKD didn't evolve from Taekkyon, it really does appear that taekkyon does have the historical root.

    It should never be conflated into having any linkage to the Hwarang. But it isn't corrent to say that "ancient Taekkyon" doesn't exist anymore. Or perhaps it would be better to say that no ancient martial art exists in the form it was practiced anymore.

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  4. mastertae is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2005 8:20am


     Style: Taekwondo/Hapkido/Judo...

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    taekkyon appears to be histroically accurate as Song was already about 17 and also when Japan occupied Korea admitted that he did some training in private...he also admitted that he forgot many of the techniques...As for Pakchiki...it is in the extreme rural areas of Korea (even during that time) which is North Korea, probably around the mountain areas...not sure about this martial art, actually I heard about this martial art while reading an article in black belt magazine, but coudn't find much more information. I also dicovered that Japan didn't manage to ban Korean Culture during the whole Korean culture as throughout the occupation the would ban and unban things of Korean Tradition...thus the ban on Korean Martial arts not being trained due to Japanese occupation is probably exaggerated....rather the greatest downfall of Korean Martial arts was when Korea took up Confucious.
  5. Matt Bernius is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2005 8:28am

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     Style: Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The general opinion was that Japan simply put the final nail in the coffin for many traditional Korean systems. As you noted it was the shift to confusionism that caused the Korean Martial Arts to develop the stigma that severly weakened their practice.

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  6. slavegan is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2005 9:10am


     Style: Kickboxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i saw a documentary called " go warrior tae kwon do" where they showed some small clip of taekkyon.some sparring and basics.to me it looked like judo with kicking.
    i read on another post that there where two versions of taekkyon this might be shins version that i saw i have the documentary on my pc.i can try to make a clip of the taekkyon
    if anyones interested.
    (i have to wait till i get my new modem before i upload it.my current one dosent work properly)
  7. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2005 9:31am

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by mastertae
    taekkyon appears to be histroically accurate as Song was already about 17 and also when Japan occupied Korea admitted that he did some training in private...he also admitted that he forgot many of the techniques...As for Pakchiki...it is in the extreme rural areas of Korea (even during that time) which is North Korea, probably around the mountain areas...not sure about this martial art, actually I heard about this martial art while reading an article in black belt magazine, but coudn't find much more information. I also dicovered that Japan didn't manage to ban Korean Culture during the whole Korean culture as throughout the occupation the would ban and unban things of Korean Tradition...thus the ban on Korean Martial arts not being trained due to Japanese occupation is probably exaggerated....rather the greatest downfall of Korean Martial arts was when Korea took up Confucious.
    Taekkyon was originally a folk game displayed during festivals. It also became a gambling game and was practiced mostly by the lower class and thugs, this was a leading cause to its demise especially after the shift from a Buddhist government to a Confusist government, where martial arts was looked down upon. The claims of it being 1800 years old are very hard to believe. It is hard to prove either way on that claim, however, you could look into when the first Korean tribes settled in that area as well as see if there are any Chinese or Mongolian folk games are similar, since Korea was occupied by both in the early beginnings of that nation.

    It is also a widely held belief that all Korean culture was destroyed by the Japanese. This is only partially true. Japan's occupation extended mostly to the major cities of Korea, not every little farm village, which was the majority of the people. As you put it....Japan's occupation was just the final nail. The Korean population killed off their indeginous martial arts on their own.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

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  8. mastertae is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2005 11:40am


     Style: Taekwondo/Hapkido/Judo...

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    since I wrote that he mentioned that h e forgot many of the techniques...it's probably likely stuff were added...do you think this is probably the case...I know they mentioned that shin later on added things to it...not sure if song also did the same since he said he forgot some of it...any ways I like the idea of songs version of full contact to the legs....any one know about pakchicki though? its another martial art according to black belt magazine that was used in the rural areas of korea...as migusaram said though it's impossible to tell how accurate that information is...just like the stories of wing chun are today...but you have to admit its fun trying to discover whats true : )
  9. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/01/2005 12:18pm

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by mastertae
    since I wrote that he mentioned that h e forgot many of the techniques...it's probably likely stuff were added...do you think this is probably the case...I know they mentioned that shin later on added things to it...not sure if song also did the same since he said he forgot some of it...any ways I like the idea of songs version of full contact to the legs....any one know about pakchicki though? its another martial art according to black belt magazine that was used in the rural areas of korea...as migusaram said though it's impossible to tell how accurate that information is...just like the stories of wing chun are today...but you have to admit its fun trying to discover whats true : )
    I am sure that items were added. If you are going to revise an old game, who is to say what is right and wrong? Just add what you can. If I remember correctly, the original object of the game was to unbalance your opponent and have them fall. This was done through sweeps and throws. Full contact to the legs seems a bit harsh for a folk game, but hey them Korean farmers are tough ol' bastards so who knows.

    Ironicly, Ssirum, Korean wrestling, doesn't get much play at all. This can be traced back much further in Korean history plus you can find similar forerunners within the Mongolian culture and Chinese culture. Yet, it hardly gets in play in the mainstream media for martial arts.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  10. mastertae is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/01/2005 12:32pm


     Style: Taekwondo/Hapkido/Judo...

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hmmm that would make sense since early koreans were actually a mongolian tribe...thanks for the info : )
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